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March 2-4th ... first -NAO anchored storm perhaps in years


Typhoon Tip

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20 minutes ago, CoastalWx said:

I  can't see the BTV WRF How are you seeing it? The graphics do not load.

One change i see is path of 850 Low

At 10am 850 Low tucked into w. Long island sound, then it tracks ESE And 850 temps begin to fall below zero From Boston to Ma/ct line by 4pm (and west of HFD)

Edit actually max 850 temps For sne are at 7am

SLP Goes from S of MTK To over and stall over MTK At 10 ,then slow wsw Then Sw move By 4

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You can see the influence of the block in the backed flow up around Hudson Bay this morning. Let's hope the block asserts itself a bit more aggressively in the modeling today. Never would've guessed we'd potentially say "Congrats, Pfreak" with this degree of blocking. One silver lining, albeit from the NAM--so take with a grain of salt--the primary takes a much better track towards Pittsburgh, as opposed to the GFS ramming it up toward Syracuse.

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I think no doubt at this point that the 12/92 and 4/97 type snowfall solutions are off the table, not that they were super likely to begin with. That ML warmth push is no joke and it's becoming consistent across guidance now so the majority of whatever QPF we get out of this thing is going to be liquid. But you can definitely see on the NAM and GFS how it's possible for the cold air aloft to crash SE if this thing fujis off the south coast. With good dynamics still in place that's definitely parachutes for a while. 

Progressive-ish Euro solution and it's curtains. 

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40 minutes ago, Hoth said:

I applaud Ray for sticking to his guns. His reasoning was sound. The primary holding on longer up into the GL region runs counter to my thinking; I thought the block would be sufficient to deflect it on a more southerly route, but such is the adamancy of the modeling that that does not appear to be the case now. Indeed, maybe, as Ray suggested, the -PNA is actually working against us in that respect. Our already marginal airmass will become even more hostile to frozen p-type. With so much juice available with this thing, it is deeply frustrating to think that if we had even an average early March airmass, this storm might've been discussed in the same breath as Feb '13 or March 1888. I still think the Euro looks a bit wonky, and am skeptical of it being so progressive. I'm hoping for earlier phasing today, but do not expect it. Barring the revival of that day 7 threat, this is probably the last trackable event in this locality until some time in late August, so let's hope the juice is worth the squeeze.

Thanks, but to be fair, I may not have placed enough weight on the track of the low BEFORE encountering the block....which is where the neg PNA could hurt.  I was probably right to call BS on the whiff for that reason, but the big snow idea maybe in trouble. 

We shall see.

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8 minutes ago, DomNH said:

I think no doubt at this point that the 12/92 and 4/97 type snowfall solutions are off the table, not that they were super likely to begin with. That ML warmth push is no joke and it's becoming consistent across guidance now so the majority of whatever QPF we get out of this thing is going to be liquid. But you can definitely see on the NAM and GFS how it's possible for the cold air aloft to crash SE if this thing fujis off the south coast. With good dynamics still in place that's definitely parachutes for a while. 

Progressive-ish Euro solution and it's curtains. 

I wouldn't say off the table quite yet...but fading. 

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Just now, 40/70 Benchmark said:

Thanks, but to be fair, I may not have placed enough weight on the track of the low BEFORE encountering the block....which is where the neg PNA could hurt.  I was probably right to call BS on the whiff for that reason, but the big snow idea maybe in trouble. 

We shall see.

I'd say if we had a more progressive trough out west as opposed to it being basically along the west coast, this would have been a far better solution.

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Just now, Baroclinic Zone said:

I'd say if we had a more progressive trough out west as opposed to it being basically along the west coast, this would have been a far better solution.

I actually nailed the fact that models would place the H5 low too far south, then adjust north bc of the RNA....but failed to be mindful of what happens before the system encounters the block, which is why the low is trending from a blizzard here to a mess, instead of shunt to a blizzard, as I had envisioned. I failed to consider that the northward progression of the low is NOT bounded by the block further to the west, which is when it floods the mid levels with warmth.

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8 minutes ago, Hoth said:

Normally if I saw a Euro MSLP track like that my laptop would hit the ceiling.

If some of the models are correct with the closed low south of LI and the eps has a semblance of a clue .. the hills to east and west of valley will get snow. It’s all about timing the flip. Is it Friday afternoon or night. That makes all the difference. Hopefully even your area can flip . I think we’ll have a good idea by 00z tonight 

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1 minute ago, Damage In Tolland said:

If some of the models are correct with the closed low south of LI and the eps has a semblance of a clue .. the hills to east and west of valley will get snow. It’s all about timing the flip. Is it Friday afternoon or night. That makes all the difference. Hopefully even your area can flip . I think we’ll have a good idea by 00z tonight 

My area was always a long shot. It would take an 18z NAM style solution to pull anything decent here.

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5 minutes ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

Beware the northward progression of primaries....NYS, game over. Northern PA..meh.....southern PA, ORGIE.

This is always the case.  This storm is more like a SWFE on steroids.  The trajectory of the storm from a SW to NE trajectory will always "warm" us to some extent.  To your point having the primary further S & E limits this "warming" and also allows for an earlier transfer to the coast cutting off that warming.  The other limiting factor is the lack of a fresh source of cold air.  We are still dealing with stale Pacific air.  We saw solutions on the table that overcame those so the potential was/is still there for some but the large scale crippling solutions faded.

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5 minutes ago, sbos_wx said:

A lot of premature bridge jumping 

I'm just explaining why it could fail to produce....I think it's time to present it as a realistic possibility. Not a bridge jump.

We could very well end up with like 6-12" after a flip, too....doesn't have to be April 97.

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Just now, 40/70 Benchmark said:

I'm just explaining why it could fail to produce....I think it's time to present it as a realistic possibility. Not a bridge jump.

We could very well end up with like 6-12" after a flip, too....doesn't have to be April 97.

Yup.  I think Jay is still hanging with his friend Jimmy Beam this AM.

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So much potential here. Despite the stale/maritime tainted air mass, SFM flips to heavy snow for a few hours late in the GFS evolution. 4 hours of Bourgouin ptype snow, 7.7" accumulation via Cobb method. 

What if the low level GFS temp field is off by 1 degree (would that warm bias be so shocking)? 

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Seems to me the key to all of this is where the 700/850 lows close and track. The Euro is about 100 miles SE of Montauk while the GFS is over Ginx's fanny at 18z Friday. That's a huge difference.

Also the Euro keeps this moving and trucking south quickly. It shuts precip off early Friday night... though it looks like most of the Euro Ens do not. 

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Just now, RUNNAWAYICEBERG said:

You could tell 5 days ago this would be marginal based on the airmass...it was our biggest concern at SWC.

Difference is that would have been wiped out and the idea of it being prohibitive to big snows was an artifact of modeling. However the mid level concerns in association with the primary that were introduced yesterday are of greater concern....the two in combination are prohibitive.

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