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Dec 22-23 snow/ice threat


ORH_wxman

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16 minutes ago, dendrite said:

My alma mater has been working on a hires WRF for our area along with cold air damming graphics. They've been working on a CAD index as well. The CAD graphics aren't available yet, but we do have some WRF images up. The model runs once a day at 00z. So these graphics I'm posting are all the way from 00z last night, but look at how damn cold they are for us. These are 2m temps valid 12z Sat, 18z Sat, and 00z Sun. Damn (dam?) cold.

 

That's awesome!  Great to see local interest in a very vulnerable spot for forecasters there... like studying upslope snow in the northern and western areas.  The CAD is a huge factor that should have its own forecast parameters to meet criteria.

You want to be able to check the boxes for a high end event or know what each criteria might mean for an outcome.

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3 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

Geezus Brian I hope those maps are wrong

Love living up here just north of Brian.  I can just read all the love you give him and know what's good for him is better for me.  Meanwhile wow are we are going to start cold with this storm up here.  I'm 16/6F right now.  With the snow coming in during the early AM no chance for warming.  So its going to be a long struggle up to 32F, that is for sure!

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Just now, wxeyeNH said:

Love living up here just north of Brian.  I can just read all the love you give him and know what's good for him is better for me.  Meanwhile wow are we are going to start cold with this storm up here.  I'm 16/6F right now.  With the snow coming in during the early AM no chance for warming.  So its going to be a long struggle up to 32F, that is for sure!

if you don't know by now I started Congrats Dendrite back in 07, it has become synonymous with congrats CNE snow belt, these are the situations where you guys just do very well.

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7 minutes ago, STILL N OF PIKE said:

Scott

What is worst case you could see having say at least a 25% chance of verifying (Not forecasting) for ASH to  NE mass away from shoreline ( regarding ice accretion)

Im trying to understand damage potential and how much Qpf could fall as ice. Seems nobody is mentioning the chances  of >.25

Seems like its a low confidence forecast, and that eastern areas should prepare for "issues"

Based on our forecast compared to model forecasts, the 75% percentile (1 in 4 chance of seeing higher than that amount) is just shy of .4" ice. 

0.25" percentage is 62% according to the WPC spread, we're saying 0.3", 0.5" percentage is 2%, so I would say there is a sweet spot between 0.1 and .3" ice that models are keying on.

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18 minutes ago, dendrite said:

My alma mater has been working on a hires WRF for our area along with cold air damming graphics. They've been working on a CAD index as well. The CAD graphics aren't available yet, but we do have some WRF images up. The model runs once a day at 00z. So these graphics I'm posting are all the way from 00z last night, but look at how damn cold they are for us. These are 2m temps valid 12z Sat, 18z Sat, and 00z Sun. Damn (dam?) cold.

plymwrf12211760hr.png

plymwrf12211766hr.png

plymwrf12211772hr.png

Not in the least bit surprising to this met 

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8 minutes ago, wxeyeNH said:

Love living up here just north of Brian.  I can just read all the love you give him and know what's good for him is better for me.  Meanwhile wow are we are going to start cold with this storm up here.  I'm 16/6F right now.  With the snow coming in during the early AM no chance for warming.  So its going to be a long struggle up to 32F, that is for sure!

 

We had dipped to 16* here as well but it looks like we bumped back up to 17*.    Either way, it will be a cool start to whatever comes down.

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39 minutes ago, OceanStWx said:

Based on our forecast compared to model forecasts, the 75% percentile (1 in 4 chance of seeing higher than that amount) is just shy of .4" ice. 

0.25" percentage is 62% according to the WPC spread, we're saying 0.3", 0.5" percentage is 2%, so I would say there is a sweet spot between 0.1 and .3" ice that models are keying on.

Are these models the same ones that under do CAD , and usually need to "take em down " with regard to temps

I see their value/Validity w snowfall But in this set up i question that.

I dont see A Historic ice storm but I wonder if there is Really only 2% chance of .60 or so QPF falling as Freezing rain For the concord,Nh To say NE mass area.

 

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1 minute ago, STILL N OF PIKE said:

Are these models the same ones that under do CAD , and usually need to "take em down " with regard to temps

I see their value/Validity w snowfall But in this set up i question that.

I dont see A Historic ice storm but I wonder if there is Really only 2% chance of .60 or so QPF falling as rain For the concord,Nh To say NE mass area.

 

It's complicated because there is input from WPC, it's not like rip and read model ice accumulations, and it is the spread of ice that matters. They ship us the spread, and that spread is applied to our forecast to make the snow and ice probabilities. So that "take 'em down" is baked into it.

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5 minutes ago, OceanStWx said:

It's complicated because there is input from WPC, it's not like rip and read model ice accumulations, and it is the spread of ice that matters. They ship us the spread, and that spread is applied to our forecast to make the snow and ice probabilities. So that "take 'em down" is baked into it.

Why do they have any weight or bearing on a NWS office forecast?  Why can’t they be tossed? I would venture a strong conjecture that they have no clue about topography, microclimates and nuances of “said” areas of the country 

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Hey pickles, as far as damage goes, I think that is more of a function of how much QPF falls. It’s  possible that the highest QPF falls in The warmer air near the low level jet. There is no question the temperatures will be cold enough for ice accretion in Nashua. You also have to figure out when the snow will change to freezing rain. Therefore the best chance of borderline damage may be actually just south of Nashua.

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7 minutes ago, Damage In Tolland said:

Why do they have any weight or bearing on a NWS office forecast?  Why can’t they be tossed? I would venture a strong conjecture that they have no clue about topography, microclimates and nuances of “said” areas of the country 

Huh? They don't have any weight in our forecasts.

They forecast nationally, we forecast locally, but they provide us with the modeled spread of winter precip. And that's how we do our probabilities (which I know you love).

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2 minutes ago, OceanStWx said:

Huh? They don't have any weight in our forecasts.

They forecast nationally, we forecast locally, but they provide us with the modeled spread of winter precip. And that's how we do our probabilities (which I know you love).

Oh I thought you were saying they gave you your base to build from. And that you had to weight their bad forecasts into yours 

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Been over this every winter but I wish we went to  an all probability forecast. It would increase awareness that this is not a perfect science while also still providing the public the ‘chances’ a range of amounts would happen. It would actually simplify forecasting imo and prevent the public from throwing tomatoes at weathermen or disregarding what is being said completely. Causing more problems with future events. 

As dumb as some people are, knowing there is an 80% chance of 12-18” and a 20% chance of 8-12” or however you range it, they can figure it out and still prepare how they see fit. 

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29 minutes ago, CoastalWx said:

Hey pickles, as far as damage goes, I think that is more of a function of how much QPF falls. It’s  possible that the highest QPF falls in The warmer air near the low level jet. There is no question the temperatures will be cold enough for ice accretion in Nashua. You also have to figure out when the snow will change to freezing rain. Therefore the best chance of borderline damage may be actually just south of Nashua.

Thank you

Im also interested in N Andover and West lynnfield

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I was just creating some time/height plots for the snow tomorrow across NH, for starters it looks like really favorable snow growth right around midday tomorrow.

But we can create these plots anywhere, by moving a set of points around (A through J). Well I discovered that point D was parked over Dendrite. I must've done that on purpose with some previous event. :lol:

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3 minutes ago, OceanStWx said:

I was just creating some time/height plots for the snow tomorrow across NH, for starters it looks like really favorable snow growth right around midday tomorrow.

But we can create these plots anywhere, by moving a set of points around (A through J). Well I discovered that point D was parked over Dendrite. I must've done that on purpose with some previous event. :lol:

Nice. Now all I need is my own MOS. I'm waiting to get referenced in the AFDs like PF..."6-8" at the coop."

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