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HoarfrostHubb

Spring 2019 New England Banter and Disco

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Just what we need more rain.........:(, Looks like a heavy batch of rain showers over Central NH moving ESE about to hit us here.

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21 hours ago, dryslot said:

Just what we need more rain.........:(, Looks like a heavy batch of rain showers over Central NH moving ESE about to hit us here.

Only measured 0.25" yesterday, while those bright echoes suggested that much coming in 20 minutes.  Might've been highly reflective wet feathers at 5,000', or whatever level the radar hits that far from the dome.  Another 0.07" overnight at temps 40-42, and still in the mank here in Augusta.

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46 minutes ago, tamarack said:

Only measured 0.25" yesterday, while those bright echoes suggested that much coming in 20 minutes.  Might've been highly reflective wet feathers at 5,000', or whatever level the radar hits that far from the dome.  Another 0.07" overnight at temps 40-42, and still in the mank here in Augusta.

We finished with .74" here as it was a steady rain with some heavier burst for most of the day.

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20 minutes ago, WinterWolf said:

Freak, this discussion goes back to my comment a few days back about quite a few folks being inexperienced, and the local government giving out to many permits imo.  You disagreed with that statement, and said you thought that the vast majority are very qualified and experienced.   

Now that info is starting to trickle out, it looks to be exactly the problem that I originally thought. And that’s what’s putting the rest of the folks, that are experienced and qualified to be there, at risk this year.  And now you add in the guiding services being sub par too...it’s no surprise it’s a death trap this year.  

That was my point from the start, not whether it’s your passion or not; many should not be there(guides and guiding services as well), and add in the overcrowding this year, and well you have a death trap!  I think that’s where you and I are disagreeing. 

I see some of your points too..but they need to start screening better and limiting the number of permits going forward.  As I said a few days back...it’s starting to be a joke/irresponsible up there, and that’s why folks are dying now unnecessarily. That place is no place for people who don’t know how to even put on, or use the basic  mountaineering equipment!  

**************************************************

I agree they need to limit the number of permits but I guess the reason I get seem almost defensive is likewise when some news comes out portraying Storm Chasers or Hurricane Chasers dumb Darwin Award candidates, many on here are like whoa whoa whoa slow down now.  There are definitely going to be those less experienced but the VAST majority are very experienced and know what they are getting into.  

If you've read Jon Krauker's Into Thin Air or Dick Bass' Seven Summits, the issues the climbers run into parallel storm chasing very closely.  They get blinded by the desire to Summit and it makes even experienced climbers make poor decisions.  Likewise when a career storm chaser wants to get the footage so bad they make a terrible if not fatal decision.  They aren't thinking rationally anymore.  In the "Into Thin Air" disaster, they were all very experienced climbers and no one really knows why some made the fatal decision to keep going with the approaching storm.  

Reading about the current Everest disaster it pisses me off when experienced climbers try to blame inexperienced climbers but then make the same dumb decision to join the crowd to get to the summit.  

Like this from The NY Times: 

Fatima Deryan, an experienced Lebanese mountaineer, was making her way to the summit recently when less experienced climbers started collapsing in front of her. Temperatures were dropping to -30 Celsius. Oxygen tanks were running low. And roughly 150 people were packed together, clipped to the same safety line.

“A lot of people were panicking, worrying about themselves — and nobody thinks about those who are collapsing,” Ms. Deryan said.

“It is a question of ethics,” she said. “We are all on oxygen. You figure out that if you help, you are going to die.”

She offered to help some of the sick people, she said, but then calculated she was beginning to endanger herself and kept going to the summit, which is currently measured at 29,029 feet. On the way back down, she had to fight her way again through the crowds.

“It was terrible,” she said.

**** This experienced climber sees people struggling, knows she will endanger herself, notes heavy crowds and yet STILL continued to the summit.  Then complains about it.  

As @tamarack noted, and I brought up earlier, most that have died (if not all) have been experienced climbers...why if they saw what was happening did they not turn around?  All this blame wants to be put on inexperienced climbers but like storm chasers that get into trouble, the vast majority knew what they were doing, they saw what was happening, and decided to continue to push forward like lemmings.  Blinded by glory.

Regardless of experience, that traffic jam was going to happen.  All those experienced hikers that keep getting interviewed saw it happening and decided to get in line and continue to the summit, while blaming everyone else for the line.  Same thing happened in the Into Thin Air disaster.  Seasoned pros died because of Summit fever.  They had a pre-determined turn around time, they missed it and kept going to the summit for hours and died because of it.

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to suggest it's a bunch of amateurs mucking it up for a few experienced mountaineers is pretty silly

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God f*cking dammit there goes that argument :lol:.

No way in hell she's going anywhere on the mountain though.  I've heard the even bigger tourist draw is those looking to visit base camp, which it appears celebrities are now doing.  

I guess in 20 years Richard Branson will be taking people like her into space for tourism, and then we can have that discussion... only a matter of time. 

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4 hours ago, powderfreak said:

God f*cking dammit there goes that argument :lol:.

No way in hell she's going anywhere on the mountain though.  I've heard the even bigger tourist draw is those looking to visit base camp, which it appears celebrities are now doing.  

I guess in 20 years Richard Branson will be taking people like her into space for tourism, and then we can have that discussion... only a matter of time. 

Per Daily Mail, she already took a helicopter out to Kathmandu.

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The biggest issue is it’s not like 95% are experienced climbers. Basically anyone with money can take a crack at it, and if you hire enough help, all you have to do is basically show up.

Look at the pics coming out of there... it’s turned into an absolute clown show. 

Its certainly not just the worlds most experienced climbers.

Ive never climbed a mountain in my life...  but if I had 100k to throw around... I bet I’d be there climbing next year 

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11 hours ago, powderfreak said:

20 minutes ago, WinterWolf said:

Freak, this discussion goes back to my comment a few days back about quite a few folks being inexperienced, and the local government giving out to many permits imo.  You disagreed with that statement, and said you thought that the vast majority are very qualified and experienced.   

Now that info is starting to trickle out, it looks to be exactly the problem that I originally thought. And that’s what’s putting the rest of the folks, that are experienced and qualified to be there, at risk this year.  And now you add in the guiding services being sub par too...it’s no surprise it’s a death trap this year.  

That was my point from the start, not whether it’s your passion or not; many should not be there(guides and guiding services as well), and add in the overcrowding this year, and well you have a death trap!  I think that’s where you and I are disagreeing. 

I see some of your points too..but they need to start screening better and limiting the number of permits going forward.  As I said a few days back...it’s starting to be a joke/irresponsible up there, and that’s why folks are dying now unnecessarily. That place is no place for people who don’t know how to even put on, or use the basic  mountaineering equipment!  

**************************************************

I agree they need to limit the number of permits but I guess the reason I get seem almost defensive is likewise when some news comes out portraying Storm Chasers or Hurricane Chasers dumb Darwin Award candidates, many on here are like whoa whoa whoa slow down now.  There are definitely going to be those less experienced but the VAST majority are very experienced and know what they are getting into.  

If you've read Jon Krauker's Into Thin Air or Dick Bass' Seven Summits, the issues the climbers run into parallel storm chasing very closely.  They get blinded by the desire to Summit and it makes even experienced climbers make poor decisions.  Likewise when a career storm chaser wants to get the footage so bad they make a terrible if not fatal decision.  They aren't thinking rationally anymore.  In the "Into Thin Air" disaster, they were all very experienced climbers and no one really knows why some made the fatal decision to keep going with the approaching storm.  

Reading about the current Everest disaster it pisses me off when experienced climbers try to blame inexperienced climbers but then make the same dumb decision to join the crowd to get to the summit.  

Like this from The NY Times: 

Fatima Deryan, an experienced Lebanese mountaineer, was making her way to the summit recently when less experienced climbers started collapsing in front of her. Temperatures were dropping to -30 Celsius. Oxygen tanks were running low. And roughly 150 people were packed together, clipped to the same safety line.

“A lot of people were panicking, worrying about themselves — and nobody thinks about those who are collapsing,” Ms. Deryan said.

“It is a question of ethics,” she said. “We are all on oxygen. You figure out that if you help, you are going to die.”

She offered to help some of the sick people, she said, but then calculated she was beginning to endanger herself and kept going to the summit, which is currently measured at 29,029 feet. On the way back down, she had to fight her way again through the crowds.

“It was terrible,” she said.

**** This experienced climber sees people struggling, knows she will endanger herself, notes heavy crowds and yet STILL continued to the summit.  Then complains about it.  

As @tamarack noted, and I brought up earlier, most that have died (if not all) have been experienced climbers...why if they saw what was happening did they not turn around?  All this blame wants to be put on inexperienced climbers but like storm chasers that get into trouble, the vast majority knew what they were doing, they saw what was happening, and decided to continue to push forward like lemmings.  Blinded by glory.

Regardless of experience, that traffic jam was going to happen.  All those experienced hikers that keep getting interviewed saw it happening and decided to get in line and continue to the summit, while blaming everyone else for the line.  Same thing happened in the Into Thin Air disaster.  Seasoned pros died because of Summit fever.  They had a pre-determined turn around time, they missed it and kept going to the summit for hours and died because of it.

Oh man this is really starting to remind me of all those chasers that get mad because they are out there for science but get stuck in traffic instead and blame other people.

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12 hours ago, TauntonBlizzard2013 said:

The biggest issue is it’s not like 95% are experienced climbers. Basically anyone with money can take a crack at it, and if you hire enough help, all you have to do is basically show up.

Look at the pics coming out of there... it’s turned into an absolute clown show. 

Its certainly not just the worlds most experienced climbers.

Ive never climbed a mountain in my life...  but if I had 100k to throw around... I bet I’d be there climbing next year 

You definitely wouldn't make it anywhere near the summit, that's for sure ;).  I know I wouldn't.

 I've been following are an engaged couple from Utah who are pro skiers.  They are some of the most accomplished mountaineers in the Wasatch but are probably considered inexperienced by the jaded Everest climbers.  But everyone was a newbie to some place at one time.  

These two trained for 4 years, aren't rich, and are like many of the "tourists" there.  They were raising money for ClimbForEquality and had a sponsored trip.  But a Sherpa may say they were inexperienced despite being renowned in the western US for climbing and skiing.  They have never been to Everest so it's hard and need a guiding service.  They slept in chambers that reduce oxygen and wore masks while biking and trail running to mimic high altitude.  

Here's a latest post on social, with an interesting take on the situation.  Media is likely blowing it out of proportion as that's what they do.  

IMG_3363.thumb.PNG.75e257c14dfe626a50e95ae66e16b949.PNG

IMG_3364.thumb.PNG.1b4d638c1d9d3d8506050c8eacf4853e.PNG

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2 hours ago, dendrite said:

Maybe, but 11 dead is newsworthy and worth addressing if changes need to be made 

Agreed, not arguing otherwise.  They should have a daily quota to the summit without a doubt.  You can't let that happen again...especially when the experienced climbers have Summit fever too.  

So many have said they saw it happening and continued onward anyway...then blaming the crowds on other people.  Like Oceanwx said, when veteran storm chasers blame traffic on others.  It wasn't them contributing?  Ha.  That's how people die on Everest.  Every single major incident has included people not turning around when they should, like the Into Thin Air disaster, because they have worked so hard towards the goal that they just keep walking to death.

My laughing and issue has been mostly at all the folks on their couches making it seem like they could just stroll up there if they had money.  

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20 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Agreed, not arguing otherwise.  They should have a daily quota to the summit without a doubt.  You can't let that happen again...especially when the experienced climbers have Summit fever too.  

So many have said they saw it happening and continued onward anyway...then blaming the crowds on other people.  Like Oceanwx said, when veteran storm chasers blame traffic on others.  It wasn't them contributing?  Ha.  That's how people die on Everest.  Every single major incident has included people not turning around when they should, like the Into Thin Air disaster, because they have worked so hard towards the goal that they just keep walking to death.

My laughing and issue has been mostly at all the folks on their couches making it seem like they could just stroll up there if they had money.  

Pickles chasing some June flakes on the summit and then meeting up with a Tibetan milf on the way back home.

  • Haha 3

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On 5/29/2019 at 11:34 AM, dendrite said:

Looks like Mandy Moore made it to base camp. ;)

 

Is this Mandy Moore the singer from like the 1990's or somewhere in that time period?

2 hours ago, powderfreak said:

Agreed, not arguing otherwise.  They should have a daily quota to the summit without a doubt.  You can't let that happen again...especially when the experienced climbers have Summit fever too.  

So many have said they saw it happening and continued onward anyway...then blaming the crowds on other people.  Like Oceanwx said, when veteran storm chasers blame traffic on others.  It wasn't them contributing?  Ha.  That's how people die on Everest.  Every single major incident has included people not turning around when they should, like the Into Thin Air disaster, because they have worked so hard towards the goal that they just keep walking to death.

My laughing and issue has been mostly at all the folks on their couches making it seem like they could just stroll up there if they had money.  

See Mandy Moore pic above.

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3 hours ago, Cold Miser said:

Is this Mandy Moore the singer from like the 1990's or somewhere in that time period?

See Mandy Moore pic above.

Yea. The star of ‘This Is Us’. 

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9 hours ago, dendrite said:

Maybe, but 11 dead is newsworthy and worth addressing if changes need to be made 

Is the death rate this year significantly higher.  More deaths but also many more climbers, correct?

One minor sidenote, Mt. Kilimanjaro is not considered that difficult a climb

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8 hours ago, HoarfrostHubb said:

Is the death rate this year significantly higher.  More deaths but also many more climbers, correct?

One minor sidenote, Mt. Kilimanjaro is not considered that difficult a climb

This year is far from a higher end death year.  It's probably near normal for number of dead in past 20 years if you took an average.  The death rate is likely lower given the number of climbers.

From 1996 and before, 1 in 4 climbers died.  Those numbers have been steadily increasing.  More are dying but a lot more are climbing.

Some big years:

1996... 15 dead

"Into Thin Air" tragedy  many very experienced who kept pushing for the summit despite knowing they were running out of oxygen and weather was coming in.  

2006... 11 dead

2012... 11 dead

2013... 9 dead

2014... 17 dead

2015... 19 dead (17 of them in one day)

2016... 7 dead

2017... 5 dead

2018... 5 dead

2019... 12 dead

This year has been bad but within a standard deviation of normal deaths.

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12 hours ago, Cold Miser said:

See Mandy Moore pic above.

If Mandy Moore makes it to the summit of Everest, then yes maybe TauntonBlizz can :lol:.

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1 hour ago, dendrite said:

How many of those deaths were due to a traffic jam?

Is PF ignoring what happened and still comparing this to texting and driving?

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1 hour ago, Ginx snewx said:

Is PF ignoring what happened and still comparing this to texting and driving?

I don't think so.  His response yesterday to Dendrite's "11 deaths is newsworthy" post seems pretty clear about that.

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16 hours ago, RUNNAWAYICEBERG said:

Yea. The star of ‘This Is Us’. 

Oh.  There are only certain movies I look to see, and I don't recall that one catching my attention.   I always thought she was just a singer with the exception of a film here and there.

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4 hours ago, Ginx snewx said:

Is PF ignoring what happened and still comparing this to texting and driving?

At least Tamarack reads my posts lol.  

They need to limit the number of daily summit attempts.  Very simple.  

And on the side...I still don't get how texting and driving isn't willfully endangering other's lives.  You seem to think it's not that big a deal.  

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6 hours ago, dendrite said:

How many of those deaths were due to a traffic jam?

Not like what just happened but there have been deaths due to slow travel at the same choke point, the Hillary Step where people couldn't get down quick enough out of the death zone.  

They should also travel more widely spaced on the guide lines.  In theory you should be crossing those open slopes with a good deal of distance between each other, so when an avalanche hits only one or two die instead of a dozen bunched together.  Once on the ridge you can stay together but several of the larger fatal accidents involve a bunch of people getting hit by an avalanche while 50 yards away remained untouched.

I love talking about this stuff... mountains and weather and anything including one of those things.  

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Are these climbers using oxygen bottles like the entire time they are above a certain altitude? Seems like you would need an insane amount of tanks. I am thinking how quick a scuba tank runs out are there like piles of tanks stashed?

 

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44 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

And on the side...I still don't get how texting and driving isn't willfully endangering other's lives.

It’s hard to compare texting while driving to Everest climbing.  In the latter case nobody is innocent.  You don’t just happen to wander across the Khumbu Icefall without knowing it, and for anyone ascending above base camp, their life is already forfeit.  People aren’t kidnapped and carried up the south face as far as I know, so if someone dies up there because of a fall, an avalanche, edema, a human traffic jam, a sacrificial act, summit fever, faulty equipment, selfish mountaineers, or whatever, it’s part of the program they signed up for.

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2 minutes ago, BrianW said:

Are these climbers using oxygen bottles like the entire time they are above a certain altitude? Seems like you would need an insane amount of tanks. I am thinking how quick a scuba tank runs out are there like piles of tanks stashed?

 

Yeah, though a very few extremely fit or genetically freakish people can do it without supplemental oxygen.  They have caches all over, and many have died by swapping an empty for an empty in their delirious mental state.

That should almost be the bigger outrage on Everest... the trash on the mountain.  Places look like landfills where they stash the empty bottles.  The pictures of that are incredible.  Nothing gets removed from the mountain, even the dead bodies usually stay up there.  

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2 hours ago, powderfreak said:

Yeah, though a very few extremely fit or genetically freakish people can do it without supplemental oxygen.  They have caches all over, and many have died by swapping an empty for an empty in their delirious mental state.

That should almost be the bigger outrage on Everest... the trash on the mountain.  Places look like landfills where they stash the empty bottles.  The pictures of that are incredible.  Nothing gets removed from the mountain, even the dead bodies usually stay up there.  

And human waste.  At base camp and above it composts exceedingly slowly if at all, and with thousands reaching base each year and many hundreds the upper camps, the stuff is all there since Mallory disappeared 92 years ago.  I don't know if any of the cleanup attempts have included those products.

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