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January Medium/Long Range Discussion


WinterWxLuvr
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27 minutes ago, WinterWxLuvr said:

It’s how we roll. The March thread is usually up and running before MLK day.

Sucks. I knew this would be an RNA winter in the mean, but it's about identifying the periods of volatility...I identified December with respect to the PNA, and I was wrong...right about the blocking, but the record RNA had screwed us out of this month.

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2 hours ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

This is OT....but I  am pumped over this, so just a sneak preview into my thought process heading into next year.

Here are the el nino seasons following multi year cool ENSO years:

1957-1958

1963-1964

1968-1969

1972-1973 (super el nino, so huge asterisk)

1976-1977

1986-1987

2002-2003

2009-2010

2014-2015

2018-2019

image.thumb.png.0a582324cd2cda0b2c07046081fce0d7.png

 

@StormchaserChuck! @raindancewx What are your thoughts on this...thinking way ahead during the meteorological down time.

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7 minutes ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

Odds are weak el nino next year,  congrats New England, moderate, congrats east coast.

Don't know about the first part...I think everybody may need a moderate. Already saw weak kinda fail 2018-19 because of the pac (losing hope quickly for improvement there!)...I'd like to see what happens with a stronger one.

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1 minute ago, Maestrobjwa said:

Don't know about the first part...I think everybody may need a moderate. Already saw weak kinda fail 2018-19 because of the pac (losing hope quickly for improvement there!)...I'd like to see what happens with a stronger one.

I think the SSW kind of messed things up that year, but I know what you mean.

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1 hour ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

@StormchaserChuck! @raindancewx What are your thoughts on this...thinking way ahead during the meteorological down time.

I actually think we are experiencing everything now. Dec -PNA vs warm ENSOsubsurface is probably a less than 0.0c Nino3.4 signal through next Winter, (although it may wave+ in April-May). 

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3 hours ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

Odds are weak el nino next year,  congrats New England, moderate, congrats east coast.

3 hours ago, CAPE said:

^Above my pay grade, but 86-87, 09-10, or 14-15 would work for me.

3 hours ago, Maestrobjwa said:

Don't know about the first part...I think everybody may need a moderate. Already saw weak kinda fail 2018-19 because of the pac (losing hope quickly for improvement there!)...I'd like to see what happens with a stronger one.

3 hours ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

I think the SSW kind of messed things up that year, but I know what you mean.

Good discussion/speculation. If we really are in a phase of increased HL blocking as I suspect (we were long due) and we get a Nino while still near the solar minimum there is obviously potential for a blockbuster winter. We are overdue for one of those also. 
 

But there are variables as you all pointed out. I suspect maestro is correct that it would require more than a weak Nino to shake up the incredibly dominant pac base state since 2016. The weak Nino of 2019 didn’t even dent it. How much did the SSW influence that?  Dunno but the Nino wasn’t having much affect on the pac even before the SSW.  Of course we don’t want a super Nino either as that just floods tropical warmth across the continent. But there are no signs of that and a fairly strong Nino like 1958 can still have a kick ass second half.  Even a mediocre Nino for the mid Atlantic like 2004-5 would be a godsend at this point!  
 

What type of Nino also matters. An east based Nino is a crap shoot. Some are good some are really bad (see 1992 & 1995!). Basin wide is better so long as it’s not a super Nino and modoki west based is the only super high almost can’t miss indicator of a cold/snowy winter in the mid Atlantic. 
 

Hopefully people remember though that many ninos, even ones that end up good like 1958, 1966, and 1987 or decent like 2004-5 or 2015-16 are pretty mild until mid January. I’m ok with the fact our December snow climo sucks but that seems to bother some a lot. But a Nino isn’t necessarily a cure for that. Moving to Vermont or Colorado would be a better plan! 
 

 

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3 hours ago, Maestrobjwa said:

Oh yeah? What happened with that?

I'll have to look back through my blogs, but I think I saw research that a SSW can excite and subsequently stagnate the MJO, and as fate had it, it end up constructively interfering with that la nina base state we have been stuck in that Hoffman alluded to. That winter was also during the blocking drought....an NAO would have changed the landscape of that somewhat. 

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2 hours ago, psuhoffman said:

Hopefully people remember though that many ninos, even ones that end up good like 1958, 1966, and 1987 or decent like 2004-5 or 2015-16 are pretty mild until mid January. I’m ok with the fact our December snow climo sucks but that seems to bother some a lot. 

And even the legendary 2009-10 winter had mild, mid-50s Christmas with rain that washed the snow away...lol Now what about temperatures in December during ninas? I had thought the front end of ninas tended colder...but I'm guessing not so much?

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2 hours ago, psuhoffman said:

But there are variables as you all pointed out. I suspect maestro is correct that it would require more than a weak Nino to shake up the incredibly dominant pac base state since 2016.

Now I'm still curious about 2016. Now is it just coincidence that things have been screwy (especially with the pac) since that super niño...or did it like break something? Lolol

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6 hours ago, Ji said:

Big changes on gfs...trough kicked more east and epo looks better

The Okhotsk vortex that has been enhancing/sustaining the strength of NPAC ridge weakens dramatically towards the end of the GEFS run, and heights build a bit more over AK and poleward(-EPO). If that is real it would allow the western US trough to broaden and shift eastward some.

Canadian ens looks even better than the GEFS at the end of its run. EPS wants to mostly keep the trough out west, although it is expanding eastward at the end.

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51 minutes ago, CAPE said:

The Okhotsk vortex that has been enhancing/sustaining the strength of NPAC ridge weakens dramatically towards the end of the GEFS run, and heights build a bit more over AK and poleward(-EPO). If that is real it would allow the western US trough to broaden and shift eastward some.

Canadian ens looks even better than the GEFS at the end of its run. EPS wants to mostly keep the trough out west, although it is expanding eastward at the end.

Is this area circled in green where we need some help?  As the run evolves, higher heights replace the vortex and (I think) it helps weaken the strength of the western trough / pushes it east enough to dampen the SER.  It looks like this vortex is helping to reinforce the current Pacific look (?).

 

127A852E-2BDD-4DC6-A582-9FA1FC730D65.jpeg

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3 minutes ago, nj2va said:

Is this area circled in green where we need some help?  As the run evolves, higher heights replace the vortex and (I think) it helps weaken the strength of the western trough / pushes it east enough to dampen the SER.  It looks like this vortex is helping to reinforce the current Pacific look (?).

 

127A852E-2BDD-4DC6-A582-9FA1FC730D65.jpeg

Yes.  If that trough dissipates, the Pac ridge should weaken some, and heights can build more into the EPO domain. We will see how sustainable this is if it plays out this way. 

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