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42 minutes ago, BxEngine said:

Nobody is broadbrushing anything. These are actual definitions. Thats it. 

No. I gave you the dictionary definition of subtropical. We are not a region adjacent to the tropics. Unless you refine 1200 miles as adjacent.

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Just now, Jeff Grann said:

No. I gave you the dictionary definition of subtropical. We are not a region adjacent to the tropics. Unless you refine 1200 miles as adjacent.

I'll just redefine the shoreline of the East Coast a desert. What the hell. ..The beaches are full of sand. There is nothing tropical, subtropical of any sort when you take our yearly average high/low temperature as the standard for our climate

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7 minutes ago, Jeff Grann said:

I'll just redefine the shoreline of the East Coast a desert. What the hell. ..The beaches are full of sand. There is nothing tropical, subtropical of any sort when you take our yearly average high/low temperature as the standard for our climate

people think of the word "tropical" as palm trees and sand.    Doesn't really mean that when you're talking about climate.  

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1 minute ago, Jeff Grann said:

I'll just redefine the shoreline of the East Coast a desert. What the hell. ..The beaches are full of sand. There is nothing tropical, subtropical of any sort when you take our yearly average high/low temperature as the standard for our climate

Tropical:

San Juan PR. Every month averages between 83-88/ 73-78

Sub Tropical: Ft.Myers

72-90/ 57-77

New York City

39-85/ 26-69

 

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, bluewave said:

This area is now at the northern edge of the cfa humid subtropical climate zone. It has been shifting north with each 10 year update.  This climate zone covers a large portion of the Eastern US. 

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It is not humid here from October through April and usually May. I am not arguing summer humidity comparisons but clearly, tropical and subtropical climates have narrow ranges in temperatures between winter and Summer. We do not.Nobody walks outside when wind chills are -10 and believes we live in any sort of climate description containing the word tropical.

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Brian5671 said:

people think of the word "tropical" as palm trees and sand.    Doesn't really mean that when you're talking about climate.  

Ok. So we will lump the Equator to NYC as tropical/subtropical and North of there to the Pole as Arctic or sub Arctic. Sounds simple

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8 minutes ago, Jeff Grann said:

Ok. So we will lump the Equator to NYC as tropical/subtropical and North of there to the Pole as Arctic or sub Arctic. Sounds simple

I would even reluctantly accept the logic that the subtropics begin South of the line where most everything isn't dormant or dead  during Winter.

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2 hours ago, Jeff Grann said:

No. I gave you the dictionary definition of subtropical. We are not a region adjacent to the tropics. Unless you refine 1200 miles as adjacent.

As an ecologist your 'textbook' definition is not what the Koppen system uses. You are also being a little too narrow in your definition of adjacent. What is the immediate climate to our south if not subtropical? North Carolina most definitely has a subtropical climate, yet they are still hundreds of miles from the true 'tropics'. Also, ocean modify climate in a huge way. If you drive directly west of NYC, would you not think the weather is far different? This time of year, you can board a train in GCT and head to the closer northern suburbs and also experience a completely different temperature. When we say NYC is subtropical, we do not mean all the way up to Albany. The next northern climate definition is humid continental climate. The temperature definition for humid continental climate is the coldest month MUST average between 32F and 26.6F. Manhattan DOES NOT experience this on a regular basis anymore. 

A humid subtropical climate "A humid subtropical climate is a zone of climate characterized by hot and humid summers, and cool to mild winters. These climates normally lie on the southeast side of all continents, generally between latitudes 25° and 40° (sometimes 46°) and are located poleward from adjacent tropical climates." NOTE NYC IS AT 40.7° N. Parts of Europe are even further north and are subtropical. If you don't like the term subtropical, you can call it warm temperate. The coldest month in a humid subtropical climate can still average between 32F and 27F, but the warmest month must average 72F or higher. NYC has had this in every summer in recent history. 

If you feel that science is not right, you can research the issue and publish your findings. 

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1 hour ago, Jeff Grann said:

I would even reluctantly accept the logic that the subtropics begin South of the line where most everything isn't dormant or dead  during Winter.

This is a very poor definition to go by because even in our hottest climates, plants will go dormant during the dry season. Cold temperature is not the only thing that forces biological life into dormancy, dry seasons do too as do the hot seasons. Take a look at the list of climates on wikipedia and see which one matches up with NYC "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Köppen_climate_classification"

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Another 80° at Newark today brings the annual count to 110 days.

 

Time Series Summary for NEWARK LIBERTY INTL AP, NJ - Jan through Dec
Click column heading to sort ascending, click again to sort descending.
Rank
Year
Number of Days Max Temperature >= 80 
Missing Count
1 2015 118 0
2 1994 114 0
3 2016 113 0
- 1993 113 0
- 1991 113 0
4 2011 111 0
- 2010 111 0
5 2021 110 99
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2 hours ago, Jeff Grann said:

Tropical:

San Juan PR. Every month averages between 83-88/ 73-78

Sub Tropical: Ft.Myers

72-90/ 57-77

New York City

39-85/ 26-69

 

 

 

 

 

You skipped the Florida keys!  Places like Key West, Marathon etc. are purely tropical.

 

Meanwhile it's 80/70 here, still some peeks of sun with the front just to the west. Front looks to be crawling eastward.

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26 minutes ago, dieselbug said:

You skipped the Florida keys!  Places like Key West, Marathon etc. are purely tropical.

 

Meanwhile it's 80/70 here, still some peeks of sun with the front just to the west. Front looks to be crawling eastward.

Didn't easily find climate data for those small locations. That's why I chose San Juan

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37 minutes ago, JustinRP37 said:

This is a very poor definition to go by because even in our hottest climates, plants will go dormant during the dry season. Cold temperature is not the only thing that forces biological life into dormancy, dry seasons do too as do the hot seasons. Take a look at the list of climates on wikipedia and see which one matches up with NYC "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Köppen_climate_classification"

Nothing went dormant in SW Florida that I noticed in Winter besides the bugs. Things may have grown a bit slower but all my tropical trees and plants were still vibrant

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4 hours ago, Jeff Grann said:

I lived on Sanibel for 3 years. Worked with boat captains and Meteorologists. Being from NY I was fascinated by the different weather down there. It was made clear to me that Florida had a Subtropical climate from just below the Tampa Bay area . North of there was not due to the  continental influence on the weather. I saw the difference especially in overnight lows . As far as the 70's, I still have the Time Magazine that was devoted to ”The next ice age cometh"?. It was very clear how NOAA and the scientific community we're leaning back then.

https://slate.com/technology/2014/12/1975-newsweek-article-on-global-cooling-how-climate-change-deniers-use-my-old-piece.html

In the 39 years since, biotechnology has flowered from a promising academic topic to a major global industry, the first test-tube baby has been born and become a mother herself, cosmologists have learned that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate rather than slowing down, and particle physicists have detected the Higgs boson, an entity once regarded as only a theoretical concept. Seven presidents have served most of 11 terms. And Newsweek has become a shadow of its former self.

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29 minutes ago, Jeff Grann said:

Nothing went dormant in SW Florida that I noticed in Winter besides the bugs. Things may have grown a bit slower but all my tropical trees and plants were still vibrant

Thats because Florida is on the southern side of the subtropical range and is humid. Florida is one of my favorite places. I know the ecology down there quite well. Go inland a bit and when things get dry you will see brief periods of dormancy, however it is much rarer in Florida. Go to Phoenix and see the amazing difference between the dry season and the monsoon season.

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The one comparison that holds between NYC and Miami is the JAS rainfall in 2021 and 2011 is  closer to the South Florida average.

Monthly Total Precipitation for NY CITY CENTRAL PARK, NY
Click column heading to sort ascending, click again to sort descending.
Year
Jul
Aug
Sep
Season
2011 3.03 18.95 9.39 31.37
2021 11.09 10.32 7.73 29.14


 

Monthly Total Precipitation for Miami Area, FL (ThreadEx)
Click column heading to sort ascending, click again to sort descending.
Year
Jul
Aug
Sep
Season
Mean 8.70 10.06 9.15 27.91
2021 8.18 7.29 7.14 22.61
2020 10.26 7.44 10.92 28.62
2019 10.54 15.74 3.25 29.53
2018 8.02 9.58 7.89 25.49
2017 12.45 8.57 14.97 35.99
2016 4.11 13.77 6.05 23.93
2015 5.91 9.02 9.97 24.90
2014 10.29 9.07 7.25 26.61
2013 12.70 4.43 10.47 27.60
2012 8.92 15.92 11.03 35.87
2011 5.71 11.08 4.99 21.78
2010 7.36 8.75 15.89 32.00
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1 minute ago, lee59 said:

There is no doubt our climate is becoming more mild and wet. Some areas of the world are becoming more dry. However because the earth is always getting cooler or warmer, I suppose we are better off overall to become warmer. The problem with this warm up is humans may be accelerating the process. 

welcome to 1988

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14 minutes ago, forkyfork said:

cold weather is becoming more infrequent with time and you don't like being reminded

I agree with both your statements. However about being reminded, it really doesn't bother me that much, facts are facts. I do have confidence though in the human race, that we will get rid of much of what we contribute to greenhouse gases long before doomsday.

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24 minutes ago, forkyfork said:

cold weather is becoming more infrequent with time and you don't like being reminded

I grew up before 1988. When I was young I really wanted cold Winters, now not so much. I do believe however that today's weather is more interesting than it was when I grew up. We get bigger snowstorms and unusual summer weather. When the weather was less mild and dryer, there just wasn't as much activity. 

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1 minute ago, lee59 said:

I grew up before 1988. When I was young I really wanted cold Winters, now not so much. I do believe however that today's weather is more interesting than it was when I grew up. We get bigger snowstorms and unusual summer weather. When the weather was less mild and dryer, there just wasn't as much activity. 

yep don't need brutal cold for snow-look at last winter for example 1.

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