Winter 2016/2017 because its never too early

[CoastalWx]

That was good.   I enjoy wet snow as well. I know Dendrite and PF have a ratio fetish.  Although, let's be fair.....deformation banding dropping a 3 spot is probably tops. 

[40/70 Benchmark]

4 hours ago, CoastalWx said:

That was good.   I enjoy wet snow as well. I know Dendrite and PF have a ratio fetish.  Although, let's be fair.....deformation banding dropping a 3 spot is probably tops. 

You can have both in the same system..

[uncle W]

 the QBO is positive now in September for two consecutive years...the first time this has happened...what does this mean?...

QBO was high in some good years...I haven't studied it yet but 59-60 and 66-67 were two good years...

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/data/correlation/qbo.data

[tamarack]

13 hours ago, Damage In Tolland said:

I share a fetish for heavy wet snow. Powder bombs are worthless.  Either blow away or vaporize faster than Ryan's virginity on prom night.  A nice damaging wet snow is exactly what we like .

I prefer the dry, drifting arctic storm - really wish I'd been home for Jan 2015, 20" of 9:1 windblown sugar at single-digit temps.  It may be the fact that I manage trees for a living that makes birch benders less favored.

[J Paul Gordon]

I'll go for the huge powder bombs dropping 24" plus with temps in the 10'sF over a sloppy water bomb delivering 12" with temps hovering around 30F. The magnitude of the first type of storm far eclipses the second type.

Then again, I'm not in love with massive tree damage, power outages in cold weather, heart attacks due to old guys shoveling, deadly pile ups on the major highways (let's go for a nice rush hour hit with 2"+ per hour rates)  and all the other joys of that kind of storm....

Imagine a year where a springtime F5 tornado outbreak carves its way through Central and Eastern CT and MA, followed by an August category 4 hurricane slamming into the Connecticut coast near  New Haven putting several million people in harms way, massive structural damage and long term power outages, feet of rain in the mountains wiping out bridges and low laying towns, 1000+ dead, and finished off by an apocalyptic ice storm on Thanksgiving weekend and that crushing wet snowstorm for Christmas. If you can imagine all that and enjoy the pictures that go with it....

[dryslot]

I'll take the 7-10:1 stuff with a couple of fluff bombs all winter, Stack it and pack it

[uncle W]

I like any kind of frozen precipitation except when snow changed to a freezing mix keeping accumulations down...

[CoastalWx]

19 minutes ago, J Paul Gordon said:

I'll go for the huge powder bombs dropping 24" plus with temps in the 10'sF over a sloppy water bomb delivering 12" with temps hovering around 30F. The magnitude of the first type of storm far eclipses the second type.

Then again, I'm not in love with massive tree damage, power outages in cold weather, heart attacks due to old guys shoveling, deadly pile ups on the major highways (let's go for a nice rush hour hit with 2"+ per hour rates)  and all the other joys of that kind of storm....

Imagine a year where a springtime F5 tornado outbreak carves its way through Central and Eastern CT and MA, followed by an August category 4 hurricane slamming into the Connecticut coast near  New Haven putting several million people in harms way, massive structural damage and long term power outages, feet of rain in the mountains wiping out bridges and low laying towns, 1000+ dead, and finished off by an apocalyptic ice storm on Thanksgiving weekend and that crushing wet snowstorm for Christmas. If you can imagine all that and enjoy the pictures that go with it....

Completely disagree with magnitude. Magnitude of wet snow far outweighs any powder bomb in many aspects.

[40/70 Benchmark]

2 hours ago, J Paul Gordon said:

I'll go for the huge powder bombs dropping 24" plus with temps in the 10'sF over a sloppy water bomb delivering 12" with temps hovering around 30F. The magnitude of the first type of storm far eclipses the second type.

Then again, I'm not in love with massive tree damage, power outages in cold weather, heart attacks due to old guys shoveling, deadly pile ups on the major highways (let's go for a nice rush hour hit with 2"+ per hour rates)  and all the other joys of that kind of storm....

Imagine a year where a springtime F5 tornado outbreak carves its way through Central and Eastern CT and MA, followed by an August category 4 hurricane slamming into the Connecticut coast near  New Haven putting several million people in harms way, massive structural damage and long term power outages, feet of rain in the mountains wiping out bridges and low laying towns, 1000+ dead, and finished off by an apocalyptic ice storm on Thanksgiving weekend and that crushing wet snowstorm for Christmas. If you can imagine all that and enjoy the pictures that go with it....

You are wrong, and it really isn't close.

Higher WE snow has a far greater impact on society, assuming relatively similar totals..

Period.

[ORH_wxman]

Well I think it depends....if you have a 8" mashed potato storm that accumulates fairly slowly and leaves roads mostly wet vs an 8" baking powder dump in 6 hours at 17F (think 12/13/07), the latter is going to be way more impactful.

The rates matter. If the rates are exactly the same and total amount is the same, then wet snow would definitely be more impactful.

 

 

[powderfreak]

16 hours ago, CoastalWx said:

That was good.   I enjoy wet snow as well. I know Dendrite and PF have a ratio fetish.  Although, let's be fair.....deformation banding dropping a 3 spot is probably tops. 

I only have a ratio fetish for powder skiing...after a base has been put down.

In all honestly, I have a snow fetish and really couldn't care less about the type of snow as long as it freakin' snows lol.

You need a good mix of synoptic snows and fluff events to keep that wintery feel going.  In a city or urban area with more dark surfaces and prone to more thaws mid-winter...go heavy snow every time.  Up north you can get 6" of fluff that sits in the trees for a month straight.

[powderfreak]

15 minutes ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

You are wrong, and it really isn't close.

Higher WE snow has a far greater impact on society, assuming relatively similar totals..

Period.

Well he was comparing 24" of wind whipped powder to 12" of mashed potatoes...so the former would likely be more impactful just because its 24" of wind packed snow.  But if the totals are the same the wet snow is more of an impact.

 

[powderfreak]

14 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

Well I think it depends....if you have a 8" mashed potato storm that accumulates fairly slowly and leaves roads mostly wet vs an 8" baking powder dump in 6 hours at 17F (think 12/13/07), the latter is going to be way more impactful.

The rates matter. If the rates are exactly the same and total amount is the same, then wet snow would definitely be more impactful.

 

 

And there's different types of powder...baking powder at 12:1 ratio is still pretty dense synoptic snow.  Its just not wet.  But I find a lot of synoptic snows, especially in SWFE are just as dense as a wet snow event.  You can get that 8:1 ratio needles that are the same as 8:1 at 34F that's dripping off the trees. 

You are right with the snowfall rates though... once wet snow at like 32-34F falls below a certain rate threshold, the impact goes way down (ie not accumulating as efficiently on pavement and stuff)...like 1/4" per hour wet snow isn't all that exciting even if you get 8" over a 24 hour period.  You may never have to shovel the driveway in that while your backyard deck has 8" of potatoes on it.

[dryslot]

Being on the coastal plain, I see more snow in the 7-12:1 range then the 12-15:1 range over an entire winter, But it has more staying power as whole throughout

[powderfreak]

18 minutes ago, dryslot said:

Being on the coastal plain, I see more snow in the 7-12:1 range then the 12-15:1 range over an entire winter, But it has more staying power as whole throughout

Does the coastal plain have anything to do with it aside from keeping you warmer?  I feel like it's all storm specific depending on the set-up.  Up here it could be SWFE dense needles, it could be low-ratio Arctic sand, it could be 20" tree bending mashed potatoes ala Dec 2014 on the mountain, it could be NW flow fluff or NW flow baking powder depending on H85 temps.  Overrunning front end 4" on 0.55" liquid, or overrunning 10" on 0.55" liquid.  All depends on the system.

So many different storms can provide so many different types of snow, it's hard to pin one type down on a geographic region.  

[dryslot]

Does the coastal plain have anything to do with it aside from keeping you warmer?  I feel like it's all storm specific depending on the set-up.  Up here it could be SWFE dense needles, it could be low-ratio Arctic sand, it could be 20" tree bending mashed potatoes ala Dec 2014 on the mountain, it could be NW flow fluff or NW flow baking powder depending on H85 temps.  Overrunning front end 4" on 0.55" liquid, or overrunning 10" on 0.55" liquid.  All depends on the system.

So many different storms can provide so many different types of snow, it's hard to pin one type down on a geographic region.  

Big influence by the atlantic on coastal storms and which side of the CF we end up on, As the crow flies 20 miles from the atlantic has a big affect


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[powderfreak]

4 minutes ago, dryslot said:

Big influence by the atlantic on coastal storms and which side of the CF we end up on, As the crow flies 20 miles from the atlantic has a big affect


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah makes sense for coastals but there are just so many other types of events, too.  

Nothing IMO helps a snowpack's staying power like a good IP/ZR event though...or even a cold rain followed by flash freeze.  

[dryslot]

4 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Yeah makes sense for coastals but there are just so many other types of events, too.  

Nothing IMO helps a snowpack's staying power like a good IP/ZR event though...or even a cold rain followed by flash freeze.  

There is definitely a lot more variables, CAD comes into play and HP location, As well as wind direction and storm direction all play roles into the outcome of precip types, You certainly would be less prone to warm air aloft from the atlantic as i am here

[40/70 Benchmark]

4 hours ago, powderfreak said:

Well he was comparing 24" of wind whipped powder to 12" of mashed potatoes...so the former would likely be more impactful just because its 24" of wind packed snow.  But if the totals are the same the wet snow is more of an impact.

 

I think the impact between 1' of 7:1 and 24" of 15:1 dust is pretty close.

You have roof collapses and power outages vs half of the snowfall sublimated within 24 hours.

You tell me the larger impactor on society.

[CoastalWx]

If he's talking about a 12" blue bomb vs 24", it may be the 12" storm. I'm assuming his terms for the 12" op are very wet snow. 12" of glop will take out a grid. As Foxboro what 6" of paste did in October 2011. 24" powder is easily moved and does nothing to infrastructure and society other than delaying travel.

[powderfreak]

3 hours ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

I think the impact between 1' of 7:1 and 24" of 15:1 dust is pretty close.

You have roof collapses and power outages vs half of the snowfall sublimated within 24 hours.

You tell me the larger impactor on society.

They should be about the same, minus the chance for power outages if the snow is wet enough to stick to them.  Impact is largely based on QPF, IMO.  A foot of 7:1 snow is 1.7" QPF, and 24" at 15:1 is 1.6" of QPF.  The nod would go to the wet snow for the power outtage aspect, but overall its roughly the same.  If the 15:1 (which really is fairly standard nor'easter snow) is 24" of wind-pack with drifts to 3-4 feet, that can be fairly big. 

[powderfreak]

10 minutes ago, CoastalWx said:

If he's talking about a 12" blue bomb vs 24", it may be the 12" storm. I'm assuming his terms for the 12" op are very wet snow. 12" of glop will take out a grid. As Foxboro what 6" of paste did in October 2011. 24" powder is easily moved and does nothing to infrastructure and society other than delaying travel.

Those two scenarios should be about the same for movement...an inch of water is an inch of water.  The power outtages though is something you won't see in a 21F nor'easter.  If someone has to clear 1.6-1.7" QPF from their driveway, the type of snow won't change the effort needed...though may change the perception (that was a heavy foot of snow!).

I think many are thinking more of the 20-40:1 ratio snow.  The 0.3" liquid to a foot of snow that's so light, you take a footstep and disturb all the snow around you.

[CoastalWx]

37 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Those two scenarios should be about the same for movement...an inch of water is an inch of water.  The power outtages though is something you won't see in a 21F nor'easter.  If someone has to clear 1.6-1.7" QPF from their driveway, the type of snow won't change the effort needed...though may change the perception (that was a heavy foot of snow!).

I think many are thinking more of the 20-40:1 ratio snow.  The 0.3" liquid to a foot of snow that's so light, you take a footstep and disturb all the snow around you.

Don't forget  wet snow globs up and piles up when pushed and plowed while more powdery snow is easily pushed aside. Wet snow is definitely more difficult to deal with.

[Damage In Tolland]

Bottom line here is unless you are a ski slope operator or powder hound .. there's not much use for powder bombs other than aesthetically and stats. If you want staying power, water table help, and damage ..wet snow is your wish 

[CoastalWx]

If each storm could be like 12/13/07, I think we'd be in good shape lol. It wasn't wet, but had staying power. 

[weathafella]

59 minutes ago, Damage In Tolland said:

Bottom line here is unless you are a ski slope operator or powder hound .. there's not much use for powder bombs other than aesthetically and stats. If you want staying power, water table help, and damage ..wet snow is your wish 

Aesthetics should count in my mind the most.  Give me a long duration low water content snow.  I don't have a big retention fetish.  

[powderfreak]

The last good paste job here was in the December 2014 (somewhere around the 10-12th) event that dropped 20" of wet snow that gradually got colder.  The first 14" was absolute mashed potatoes, followed by 6" of slightly drier snow but not by much.  All natural snow trails at the ski area were able to open off that one storm just because of the large QPF dump.

f

 

[powderfreak]

1 hour ago, CoastalWx said:

Don't forget  wet snow globs up and piles up when pushed and plowed while more powdery snow is easily pushed aside. Wet snow is definitely more difficult to deal with.

I just thing the overall weight of removal is the same if the water equivalent is the same.  Of course inch for inch, wet snow is more difficult to deal with...but the water content is way different on an inch per inch basis.  Wet snow is certainly more difficult to deal with than powder snow on that scale.

[CoastalWx]

16 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

I just thing the overall weight of removal is the same if the water equivalent is the same.  Of course inch for inch, wet snow is more difficult to deal with...but the water content is way different on an inch per inch basis.  Wet snow is certainly more difficult to deal with than powder snow on that scale.

Yeah if I had a square and took 12" of 7:1 and 24" of 15:1 or whatever..it would weigh the same. But in reality, wet snow just is a PITA to deal with because of its behavior. I deal with wet snow a lot...it's just a real pain to move around.  I just think the overall impact from high water content snow is much higher if you had 12" of cement vs 24" of dry snow.  We always comment on how impressive snowbanks look from 6" of snow. That's because it doesn't compact and move easily aside from plowing like dry snow does. It bunches up into balls and becomes a big pain.

[40/70 Benchmark]

2 hours ago, CoastalWx said:

Don't forget  wet snow globs up and piles up when pushed and plowed while more powdery snow is easily pushed aside. Wet snow is definitely more difficult to deal with.

Exactly.

No contest.