Late warning for Springfield

[Baroclinic Zone]

So it looks like I am will be goifn camping out in Sturbridge for the 4th. Place is located like 1/4m from the tornado path. It may give me a good reason to trek over to Brimfield to take a look first hand at what mother nature can do.

[weather01089]

If you look over West Granville on KENX at 4:02 and 4:06 PM, that cell was 110+ GTG both scans. Problem is, BOX radar like was said was range folded and missed it. BOX had a TOR warning active up near Amherst, and that cell did look worse at that moment. That being said, someone should have seen the range folding and looked at KENX. Probably with all that was going on, that may not have been possible. The report came in from a spotter in Westfield, and the PD, and I went outside at work to see a VIGOROUS rotating wall cloud just west of West Springfield. I was 1/2 mile over the river from West Springfield. I was on the phone with BOX, and they had the warning up within a minute of my stating the wall cloud had rotation. I then saw it lower and debris fly big time. Yes, I have video, in HD of the wall cloud and initial touch down. Blasted highway got in the way for it shortly after, but debris was all over. It fell right at my feet, signaling me to beat feet inside. It passed 1/4 mile south of me. I was outside within 60 seconds of the Westfield report being received at BOX with video running. INCREDIBLE is all I can say. I went over to west springfield within 5 minutes and found it trashed within 2 houses south of mine.

Ray

[Ginx snewx]

If you look over West Granville on KENX at 4:02 and 4:06 PM, that cell was 110+ GTG both scans. Problem is, BOX radar like was said was range folded and missed it. BOX had a TOR warning active up near Amherst, and that cell did look worse at that moment. That being said, someone should have seen the range folding and looked at KENX. Probably with all that was going on, that may not have been possible. The report came in from a spotter in Westfield, and the PD, and I went outside at work to see a VIGOROUS rotating wall cloud just west of West Springfield. I was 1/2 mile over the river from West Springfield. I was on the phone with BOX, and they had the warning up within a minute of my stating the wall cloud had rotation. I then saw it lower and debris fly big time. Yes, I have video, in HD of the wall cloud and initial touch down. Blasted highway got in the way for it shortly after, but debris was all over. It fell right at my feet, signaling me to beat feet inside. It passed 1/4 mile south of me. I was outside within 60 seconds of the Westfield report being received at BOX with video running. INCREDIBLE is all I can say. I went over to west springfield within 5 minutes and found it trashed within 2 houses south of mine.

Ray

Sweet where is the vid

[HoarfrostHubb]

If you look over West Granville on KENX at 4:02 and 4:06 PM, that cell was 110+ GTG both scans. Problem is, BOX radar like was said was range folded and missed it. BOX had a TOR warning active up near Amherst, and that cell did look worse at that moment. That being said, someone should have seen the range folding and looked at KENX. Probably with all that was going on, that may not have been possible. The report came in from a spotter in Westfield, and the PD, and I went outside at work to see a VIGOROUS rotating wall cloud just west of West Springfield. I was 1/2 mile over the river from West Springfield. I was on the phone with BOX, and they had the warning up within a minute of my stating the wall cloud had rotation. I then saw it lower and debris fly big time. Yes, I have video, in HD of the wall cloud and initial touch down. Blasted highway got in the way for it shortly after, but debris was all over. It fell right at my feet, signaling me to beat feet inside. It passed 1/4 mile south of me. I was outside within 60 seconds of the Westfield report being received at BOX with video running. INCREDIBLE is all I can say. I went over to west springfield within 5 minutes and found it trashed within 2 houses south of mine.

Ray

Cool! Did they say if you were the first to report it? Are you Sky Warn?

As Ginxy said, vid?

[weather01089]

Cool! Did they say if you were the first to report it? Are you Sky Warn?

As Ginxy said, vid?

Im the founder of skywarn in SNE. The report came from a skywarn spotter in westfield of a wall cloud, and the police of

a "touchdown". I was on IM with the skywarn coord at BOX. My report was like 2 mins after. From what I understand, they

had the warning ready to go and hit the button when I called. They had it out before it hit the ground. THe HD video I have is

really large, and we are making a video of that and all the damage.

I saw the cell on ENX and it was impressive, but again the Amherst one they TOR'd looked better at that moment.

I have video of Westfield, West Springfield, and Springfield. Its rather unnerving to see it 2 blocks from your house like that trust me.

I had misc junk all over my yard, mostly someone's trash. The building debris all blew east from the buildings, which were east of me.

Ray

Ill try to make lower res version to put up someplace. The video of the on the ground part is a little disappointing since the highway got

in the way, but you can see the debris, LARGE pieces, way up in the air.

[Ginx snewx]

Im the founder of skywarn in SNE. The report came from a skywarn spotter in westfield of a wall cloud, and the police of

a "touchdown". I was on IM with the skywarn coord at BOX. My report was like 2 mins after. From what I understand, they

had the warning ready to go and hit the button when I called. They had it out before it hit the ground. THe HD video I have is

really large, and we are making a video of that and all the damage.

I saw the cell on ENX and it was impressive, but again the Amherst one they TOR'd looked better at that moment.

I have video of Westfield, West Springfield, and Springfield. Its rather unnerving to see it 2 blocks from your house like that trust me.

I had misc junk all over my yard, mostly someone's trash. The building debris all blew east from the buildings, which were east of me.

Ray

Ill try to make lower res version to put up someplace. The video of the on the ground part is a little disappointing since the highway got

in the way, but you can see the debris, LARGE pieces, way up in the air.

Founder of Skywarn? Ray I must know you, good stuff.

[radarman]

If you look over West Granville on KENX at 4:02 and 4:06 PM, that cell was 110+ GTG both scans. Problem is, BOX radar like was said was range folded and missed it. BOX had a TOR warning active up near Amherst, and that cell did look worse at that moment. That being said, someone should have seen the range folding and looked at KENX. Probably with all that was going on, that may not have been possible. The report came in from a spotter in Westfield, and the PD, and I went outside at work to see a VIGOROUS rotating wall cloud just west of West Springfield. I was 1/2 mile over the river from West Springfield. I was on the phone with BOX, and they had the warning up within a minute of my stating the wall cloud had rotation. I then saw it lower and debris fly big time. Yes, I have video, in HD of the wall cloud and initial touch down. Blasted highway got in the way for it shortly after, but debris was all over. It fell right at my feet, signaling me to beat feet inside. It passed 1/4 mile south of me. I was outside within 60 seconds of the Westfield report being received at BOX with video running. INCREDIBLE is all I can say. I went over to west springfield within 5 minutes and found it trashed within 2 houses south of mine.

Ray

ka1jjm I presume?

Glad to have you back. I was wondering if you were in the area when the storms hit. Thanks for the report.

[weather01089]

ka1jjm I presume?

Glad to have you back. I was wondering if you were in the area when the storms hit. Thanks for the report.

That be me, KA1JJM. The touchdown time reported was in Westfield. It lifted briefly but not for 2 straight miles, so its considered the same tornado. It liftted over most of Robinson State Park on the north edge of Agawam, then touched down just over the West Springfield Line off of River St. Those times given look right, but the reports were not received until a few minutes after. As soon as we got the report I ducked out the door. It must have been over Robinson Park because it was definately off the ground at that point.

Ray

[CT Rain]

That be me, KA1JJM. The touchdown time reported was in Westfield. It lifted briefly but not for 2 straight miles, so its considered the same tornado. It liftted over most of Robinson State Park on the north edge of Agawam, then touched down just over the West Springfield Line off of River St. Those times given look right, but the reports were not received until a few minutes after. As soon as we got the report I ducked out the door. It must have been over Robinson Park because it was definately off the ground at that point.

Ray

Did the tornado lift at all in Wilbraham? Seems the damage there was quite a bit less than in surrounding towns?

Can't wait to see your video

[weather01089]

Did the tornado lift at all in Wilbraham? Seems the damage there was quite a bit less than in surrounding towns?

Can't wait to see your video

I didnt see the Wilbraham damage, but there is a landsat picture out there of the track and its pretty continuous from Springfield East. It may have briefly weakened, but the radar sure didnt show that. The east end of Springfield damage is VERY nasty, high EF3. Great damage survey done by NWS on this one.

Ray

[CT Rain]

I didnt see the Wilbraham damage, but there is a landsat picture out there of the track and its pretty continuous from Springfield East. It may have briefly weakened, but the radar sure didnt show that. The east end of Springfield damage is VERY nasty, high EF3. Great damage survey done by NWS on this one.

Ray

Yeah it is bad there. Brimfield is in rough shape too. Was there yesterday and Monson right after the touchdown on Wednesday.

[adamrivers]

It seems strange that no media outlet has picked the "late warning" up yet.

[adamrivers]

I didnt see the Wilbraham damage, but there is a landsat picture out there of the track and its pretty continuous from Springfield East. It may have briefly weakened, but the radar sure didnt show that. The east end of Springfield damage is VERY nasty, high EF3. Great damage survey done by NWS on this one.

Ray

I also did not get to see any Wilbraham damage personally - yet - but a co-worker at the radio station I work for part-time in Springfield is also on the Wilbraham Fire Department - and he said after the storm they spent a good 24 hours plus responding to calls and clearing debris - and he did a 24 hour shift himself. He mentioned quite a few streets....the only one I can remember right now is Tinkham Road as being damaged. There was a picture in the Springfield newspaper of a newer, contemporary home in Wilbraham that had a couple walls and the roof blown out over one section of the house as well.

[weatherwiz]

Im the founder of skywarn in SNE. The report came from a skywarn spotter in westfield of a wall cloud, and the police of

a "touchdown". I was on IM with the skywarn coord at BOX. My report was like 2 mins after. From what I understand, they

had the warning ready to go and hit the button when I called. They had it out before it hit the ground. THe HD video I have is

really large, and we are making a video of that and all the damage.

I saw the cell on ENX and it was impressive, but again the Amherst one they TOR'd looked better at that moment.

I have video of Westfield, West Springfield, and Springfield. Its rather unnerving to see it 2 blocks from your house like that trust me.

I had misc junk all over my yard, mostly someone's trash. The building debris all blew east from the buildings, which were east of me.

Ray

Ill try to make lower res version to put up someplace. The video of the on the ground part is a little disappointing since the highway got

in the way, but you can see the debris, LARGE pieces, way up in the air.

If this is the same video you sent me the other night on AIM it didn't work. Send me again.

[adamrivers]

I didnt see the Wilbraham damage, but there is a landsat picture out there of the track and its pretty continuous from Springfield East. It may have briefly weakened, but the radar sure didnt show that. The east end of Springfield damage is VERY nasty, high EF3. Great damage survey done by NWS on this one.

Ray

And also - agreed....I was very surprised at the damage in Springfield when I finally drove through in the daytime yesterday. Island Pond Road, up Surrey Road towards Cathedral and then on Roosevelt Avenue - and South Branch Parkway - that is all much worse than I expected. That neighborhood was shaded pretty well by trees and it's a big clearing in the entire path - and several of those newer, big homes on Roosevelt Avenue, on the pond near Cathedral are completely boarded up. What is interesting about this area is the damage cutoff is very sharp - one house on Roosevelt has a bent gutter and the next one is completely boarded up. I wasn't expecting that at all. My cousin and her family live on the upper portion of Allen Street and said they heard the tornado "freight train" and got into the basement - they escaped with only debris fallen in their yard and nothing else.

[ineedsnow]

lots of spotty damage around agawam seems like it touched down and lifted several times around here 2 streets over from my dads it touched down and one street after his it touched down again he was lucky to say the least!! he said the wind was incredible!

That be me, KA1JJM. The touchdown time reported was in Westfield. It lifted briefly but not for 2 straight miles, so its considered the same tornado. It liftted over most of Robinson State Park on the north edge of Agawam, then touched down just over the West Springfield Line off of River St. Those times given look right, but the reports were not received until a few minutes after. As soon as we got the report I ducked out the door. It must have been over Robinson Park because it was definately off the ground at that point.

Ray

[weather01089]

[quo

te name=patsrule417' timestamp='1307511015' post='742038]

It seems strange that no media outlet has picked the "late warning" up yet.

The local TV stations cut in live for the TOR warning up in Hampshire. One at least was pointing out the cell near westfield and making mention of it. Then they spotted it on their livecams on top of the Springfield buildings. WWLP got spectacular video of it over West Springfield/Agawam, from the wall cloud state, to touchdown, then on right past their buidings downtown! With a watch up most of the people I have talked to were aware there was potential, but you get the "it never happens" mentality. I do know at least one met in Albany that saw it on ENX and mentioned it over West Granville/Tolland on air. The cell blew up in one volume scan, from nothing to monster, but on reflectivity it didnt look all that impressive at first glance until it got futher east. With the alignment of all those cells in a cluster rather than discrete cells, they didnt look very threatening at that moment. That changed with one more volume scan however. I have time finally today Ill see what I can do with that video. Its 2.3 gigabytes in AVI format so it has to be cut down in res to upload someplace. The HD though of the wall cloud part was up close and spectacular. I just wish 91/291 werent in the way later on. But there is a lot of video around of that portion of the event.

Ray

[BadgerWXman]

It was really interesting to read the responses from the actual forecasters at KBOX. I, along with the many others in this thread that have already said, certainly appreciate it.

That being said, I just wanted to give my point of view on the whole situation... call it Monday Morning Quarterbacking if you want, but the bottom line is that it's important to review events like this so we can improve the way we do things. It's absolutely nothing personal.

First off, I was a bit unnerved to hear the ENX radar just referred to as "another option." I work for a station that covers a large area... big chunk of West Virginia, Southeastern Ohio, Eastern KY, and a few VA counties just south of WV. When we cover storms, we use whichever radar is closest to the storm being analyzed! KRLX is usually the one that is the right choice, but a lot of the time it's KILN, KJKL, or KRNK. Even while we're covering storms live on the air during an outbreak with lots of warnings, we switch between the radar sites ALL the time.

Even when I'm geeking out at home and tracking random storms between radar sites, I sometimes open 2 instances of GR.. one for each site.. due to range and range folding issues.

I know it's only a 10-15 mile difference in this case... at 4:11, the storm was 62 miles from ENX and 75 miles from BOX. That's still a difference between 5700ft and 7600ft elevation on the 0.5º scan. That's a fairly small difference, I think we can probably agree on that. But what I can't understand is why it was just acceptable in your mind to "watch that couplet go into RF" when you could have easily seen it (at a lower elevation mind you) on ENX and then picked it up on BOX as it got into Springfield. I know I wasn't sitting in the chair that night but I can guarantee you if I was, I would have had a look at that storm on ENX when it went into BOX's purple haze. In fact, I probably would have been analyzing it on ENX in the first place until it got very close to Springfield.

All that being said, if switching radar sites is cumbersome for you guys due to whatever radar viewing program you're using then I stand corrected.

Trust me, I'm majorly aware of the high rate of non-verifying warnings and I think tornado warnings especially are WAY overdone in general so I love the fact that you guys were trying to be careful not to go that route. Maybe I'm wrong and if I am please correct me if that's the case, but I would imagine the vast majority of false alarm tornado warnings are due to radar based warnings rather than ground confirmation/funnel cloud report based warnings.. things like warning every single little spin up in a weak bow echo (which a certain office near me does quite often)... But I think if there's a legitimate funnel cloud/rotating wall cloud report.. even for one only lasting a minute, that should be enough for a warning... especially considering the atmospheric conditions that day. Like I said, that's just my personal opinion so take it for what it's worth (which I understand might not be much )

Overall, even if the storm was warned 10 minutes earlier it probably wouldn't have made too much of a difference in this case but I still think it's worth having conversation about and reviewing the whole situation so we can all learn from it. Heck, I majorly blew the forecast for my DMA yesterday saying it would be dry all day and then watching that MCS that was coming out of Canada over Lake Erie in the early morning survive the ridge and make it all the way down into VA through the late afternoon, carving a path of downed trees/power lines through my DMA leaving hundreds without power. So when I got to work this morning, I wasn't defensive... I just manned up to it on the air, and learned from the whole experience.

I hope I didn't come across as a pompous ass.. sometimes my internet speaking style doesn't do a great job of representing my in person speaking style... hopefully we can still be friends?

[Ginx snewx]

It was really interesting to read the responses from the actual forecasters at KBOX. I, along with the many others in this thread that have already said, certainly appreciate it.

That being said, I just wanted to give my point of view on the whole situation... call it Monday Morning Quarterbacking if you want, but the bottom line is that it's important to review events like this so we can improve the way we do things. It's absolutely nothing personal.

First off, I was a bit unnerved to hear the ENX radar just referred to as "another option." I work for a station that covers a large area... big chunk of West Virginia, Southeastern Ohio, Eastern KY, and a few VA counties just south of WV. When we cover storms, we use whichever radar is closest to the storm being analyzed! KRLX is usually the one that is the right choice, but a lot of the time it's KILN, KJKL, or KRNK. Even while we're covering storms live on the air during an outbreak with lots of warnings, we switch between the radar sites ALL the time.

Even when I'm geeking out at home and tracking random storms between radar sites, I sometimes open 2 instances of GR.. one for each site.. due to range and range folding issues.

I know it's only a 10-15 mile difference in this case... at 4:11, the storm was 62 miles from ENX and 75 miles from BOX. That's still a difference between 5700ft and 7600ft elevation on the 0.5º scan. That's a fairly small difference, I think we can probably agree on that. But what I can't understand is why it was just acceptable in your mind to "watch that couplet go into RF" when you could have easily seen it (at a lower elevation mind you) on ENX and then picked it up on BOX as it got into Springfield. I know I wasn't sitting in the chair that night but I can guarantee you if I was, I would have had a look at that storm on ENX when it went into BOX's purple haze. In fact, I probably would have been analyzing it on ENX in the first place until it got very close to Springfield.

All that being said, if switching radar sites is cumbersome for you guys due to whatever radar viewing program you're using then I stand corrected.

Trust me, I'm majorly aware of the high rate of non-verifying warnings and I think tornado warnings especially are WAY overdone in general so I love the fact that you guys were trying to be careful not to go that route. Maybe I'm wrong and if I am please correct me if that's the case, but I would imagine the vast majority of false alarm tornado warnings are due to radar based warnings rather than ground confirmation/funnel cloud report based warnings.. things like warning every single little spin up in a weak bow echo (which a certain office near me does quite often)... But I think if there's a legitimate funnel cloud/rotating wall cloud report.. even for one only lasting a minute, that should be enough for a warning... especially considering the atmospheric conditions that day. Like I said, that's just my personal opinion so take it for what it's worth (which I understand might not be much )

Overall, even if the storm was warned 10 minutes earlier it probably wouldn't have made too much of a difference in this case but I still think it's worth having conversation about and reviewing the whole situation so we can all learn from it. Heck, I majorly blew the forecast for my DMA yesterday saying it would be dry all day and then watching that MCS that was coming out of Canada over Lake Erie in the early morning survive the ridge and make it all the way down into VA through the late afternoon, carving a path of downed trees/power lines through my DMA leaving hundreds without power. So when I got to work this morning, I wasn't defensive... I just manned up to it on the air, and learned from the whole experience.

I hope I didn't come across as a pompous ass.. sometimes my internet speaking style doesn't do a great job of representing my in person speaking style... hopefully we can still be friends?

Fantastic post.

[Ginx snewx]

The local TV stations cut in live for the TOR warning up in Hampshire. One at least was pointing out the cell near westfield and making mention of it. Then they spotted it on their livecams on top of the Springfield buildings. WWLP got spectacular video of it over West Springfield/Agawam, from the wall cloud state, to touchdown, then on right past their buidings downtown! With a watch up most of the people I have talked to were aware there was potential, but you get the "it never happens" mentality. I do know at least one met in Albany that saw it on ENX and mentioned it over West Granville/Tolland on air. The cell blew up in one volume scan, from nothing to monster, but on reflectivity it didnt look all that impressive at first glance until it got futher east. With the alignment of all those cells in a cluster rather than discrete cells, they didnt look very threatening at that moment. That changed with one more volume scan however. I have time finally today Ill see what I can do with that video. Its 2.3 gigabytes in AVI format so it has to be cut down in res to upload someplace. The HD though of the wall cloud part was up close and spectacular. I just wish 91/291 werent in the way later on. But there is a lot of video around of that portion of the event.

Ray

You tube

[weather01089]

You tube

I havent seen anything of the stage just prior to touchdown that matches what I shot. In addition, RIGHT OVER my head just west of where it hit in West Springfield there was another circulation I shot. It stayed up fortunately. I look at it now and it sends chills down my spine.

Ray

[Ginx snewx]

I havent seen anything of the stage just prior to touchdown that matches what I shot. In addition, RIGHT OVER my head just west of where it hit in West Springfield there was another circulation I shot. It stayed up fortunately. I look at it now and it sends chills down my spine.

Ray

Upload it to you tube

[The Dude]

It was really interesting to read the responses from the actual forecasters at KBOX. I, along with the many others in this thread that have already said, certainly appreciate it.

That being said, I just wanted to give my point of view on the whole situation... call it Monday Morning Quarterbacking if you want, but the bottom line is that it's important to review events like this so we can improve the way we do things. It's absolutely nothing personal.

First off, I was a bit unnerved to hear the ENX radar just referred to as "another option." I work for a station that covers a large area... big chunk of West Virginia, Southeastern Ohio, Eastern KY, and a few VA counties just south of WV. When we cover storms, we use whichever radar is closest to the storm being analyzed! KRLX is usually the one that is the right choice, but a lot of the time it's KILN, KJKL, or KRNK. Even while we're covering storms live on the air during an outbreak with lots of warnings, we switch between the radar sites ALL the time.

Even when I'm geeking out at home and tracking random storms between radar sites, I sometimes open 2 instances of GR.. one for each site.. due to range and range folding issues.

I know it's only a 10-15 mile difference in this case... at 4:11, the storm was 62 miles from ENX and 75 miles from BOX. That's still a difference between 5700ft and 7600ft elevation on the 0.5º scan. That's a fairly small difference, I think we can probably agree on that. But what I can't understand is why it was just acceptable in your mind to "watch that couplet go into RF" when you could have easily seen it (at a lower elevation mind you) on ENX and then picked it up on BOX as it got into Springfield. I know I wasn't sitting in the chair that night but I can guarantee you if I was, I would have had a look at that storm on ENX when it went into BOX's purple haze. In fact, I probably would have been analyzing it on ENX in the first place until it got very close to Springfield.

All that being said, if switching radar sites is cumbersome for you guys due to whatever radar viewing program you're using then I stand corrected.

Trust me, I'm majorly aware of the high rate of non-verifying warnings and I think tornado warnings especially are WAY overdone in general so I love the fact that you guys were trying to be careful not to go that route. Maybe I'm wrong and if I am please correct me if that's the case, but I would imagine the vast majority of false alarm tornado warnings are due to radar based warnings rather than ground confirmation/funnel cloud report based warnings.. things like warning every single little spin up in a weak bow echo (which a certain office near me does quite often)... But I think if there's a legitimate funnel cloud/rotating wall cloud report.. even for one only lasting a minute, that should be enough for a warning... especially considering the atmospheric conditions that day. Like I said, that's just my personal opinion so take it for what it's worth (which I understand might not be much )

Overall, even if the storm was warned 10 minutes earlier it probably wouldn't have made too much of a difference in this case but I still think it's worth having conversation about and reviewing the whole situation so we can all learn from it. Heck, I majorly blew the forecast for my DMA yesterday saying it would be dry all day and then watching that MCS that was coming out of Canada over Lake Erie in the early morning survive the ridge and make it all the way down into VA through the late afternoon, carving a path of downed trees/power lines through my DMA leaving hundreds without power. So when I got to work this morning, I wasn't defensive... I just manned up to it on the air, and learned from the whole experience.

I hope I didn't come across as a pompous ass.. sometimes my internet speaking style doesn't do a great job of representing my in person speaking style... hopefully we can still be friends?

Great post.

I am certainly in no position to be second-guessing the judgment calls that excellent on-duty mets made, but I found it concerning that there was relevant data available to amateur hobbyists with a fairly cheap software program that (for whatever reason) was not included as part of the calculus for making the warn/no-warn decision. If there is indeed some technological or bureaucratic obstacle that is preventing the mets from accessing all relevant information, I hope this event prompts the necessary change to eliminate that obstacle. I wholeheartedly trust the judgment of the NWS mets to make the right call when they have the relevant data. I just want to make sure they have the at least the same information that weatherwiz has...

[adamrivers]

It was really interesting to read the responses from the actual forecasters at KBOX. I, along with the many others in this thread that have already said, certainly appreciate it.

That being said, I just wanted to give my point of view on the whole situation... call it Monday Morning Quarterbacking if you want, but the bottom line is that it's important to review events like this so we can improve the way we do things. It's absolutely nothing personal.

First off, I was a bit unnerved to hear the ENX radar just referred to as "another option." I work for a station that covers a large area... big chunk of West Virginia, Southeastern Ohio, Eastern KY, and a few VA counties just south of WV. When we cover storms, we use whichever radar is closest to the storm being analyzed! KRLX is usually the one that is the right choice, but a lot of the time it's KILN, KJKL, or KRNK. Even while we're covering storms live on the air during an outbreak with lots of warnings, we switch between the radar sites ALL the time.

Even when I'm geeking out at home and tracking random storms between radar sites, I sometimes open 2 instances of GR.. one for each site.. due to range and range folding issues.

I know it's only a 10-15 mile difference in this case... at 4:11, the storm was 62 miles from ENX and 75 miles from BOX. That's still a difference between 5700ft and 7600ft elevation on the 0.5º scan. That's a fairly small difference, I think we can probably agree on that. But what I can't understand is why it was just acceptable in your mind to "watch that couplet go into RF" when you could have easily seen it (at a lower elevation mind you) on ENX and then picked it up on BOX as it got into Springfield. I know I wasn't sitting in the chair that night but I can guarantee you if I was, I would have had a look at that storm on ENX when it went into BOX's purple haze. In fact, I probably would have been analyzing it on ENX in the first place until it got very close to Springfield.

All that being said, if switching radar sites is cumbersome for you guys due to whatever radar viewing program you're using then I stand corrected.

Trust me, I'm majorly aware of the high rate of non-verifying warnings and I think tornado warnings especially are WAY overdone in general so I love the fact that you guys were trying to be careful not to go that route. Maybe I'm wrong and if I am please correct me if that's the case, but I would imagine the vast majority of false alarm tornado warnings are due to radar based warnings rather than ground confirmation/funnel cloud report based warnings.. things like warning every single little spin up in a weak bow echo (which a certain office near me does quite often)... But I think if there's a legitimate funnel cloud/rotating wall cloud report.. even for one only lasting a minute, that should be enough for a warning... especially considering the atmospheric conditions that day. Like I said, that's just my personal opinion so take it for what it's worth (which I understand might not be much )

Overall, even if the storm was warned 10 minutes earlier it probably wouldn't have made too much of a difference in this case but I still think it's worth having conversation about and reviewing the whole situation so we can all learn from it. Heck, I majorly blew the forecast for my DMA yesterday saying it would be dry all day and then watching that MCS that was coming out of Canada over Lake Erie in the early morning survive the ridge and make it all the way down into VA through the late afternoon, carving a path of downed trees/power lines through my DMA leaving hundreds without power. So when I got to work this morning, I wasn't defensive... I just manned up to it on the air, and learned from the whole experience.

I hope I didn't come across as a pompous ass.. sometimes my internet speaking style doesn't do a great job of representing my in person speaking style... hopefully we can still be friends?

This is probably the best post in this entire thread

[OSUmetstud]

How does one who is working at BOX look at the different radars? Do they have to switch it on the dedicated radar station or just bring up a tab on AWIPS? There's been very little mention of the ENX scans from the Eleanor and Billb.

[Turtle]

How does one who is working at BOX look at the different radars? Do they have to switch it on the dedicated radar station or just bring up a tab on AWIPS? There's been very little mention of the ENX scans from the Eleanor and Billb.

Very easy to do, Nick. We have dedicated data coming in from ENX, OKX and GYX on AWIPS. Can not due this with all products coming in from the radar. We have selected products (such as reflectivity, velocity, etc.) set up that day then, if there's a product we want, we can request it or put in a multiple request (like 20 versions of OHP), and it should come in unless there's communications problems. Then, all we have to do is call up what product(s) we want. We also have GR2Analyst on all operational PCs on the floor, but have to start the polling to get the data on whichever site we want. However, we have to refresh all our preset info (background maps, the URL for the polling site, etc.) whenever the PCs are upgraded (which is more frequent than one would think).

Bill and I were not working radar during this event. We were the dedicated forecasters on the shift, but did cut back on updating the grids to help with the very big added workload. I can not speak for the radar operators that afternoon/evening.

--Turtle

[BillB]

How does one who is working at BOX look at the different radars? Do they have to switch it on the dedicated radar station or just bring up a tab on AWIPS? There's been very little mention of the ENX scans from the Eleanor and Billb.

ENX and several Northeast USA radars are available on our AWIPS system, but routinely with truncated data sets...normally just the lowest 4 angles on base data and some but not all of the derived products. As Eleanor mentioned, we have to initiate request programs on AWIPS in order to receive a broader data set. GR2A is also available, but subject to bandwidth limitations...which has been an ongoing problem for a long time. Recently, the two offices (BOX and the NERFC) made some adjustments to streamline the inflow of data through the Internet to the building; lately the bandwidth problem has improved, but there are still operations (such as downloading Archive 2 data from NCDC) that go much more smoothly and quickly at home than at the office.

On the evening in question, I had GR2A up and running on my workstation pc, but was attending to other functions such as answering phones, relaying warnings and replying on other communications systems, and substituting for the storm coordinator for a time.

[David Reimer]

Bill B and El thanks for your explanations. It appears to me that perhaps the NWS needs to adapt and advance to a more multimedia approach. The more info the better, web cams, AMWX etc. I would think a Risk day would include bringing in extra staff, perhaps interns etc could be assigned to monitor multiple feeds and pass on verifiable info. As far as Internet goes, shame on NWS.

I'm just reading through the thread now, but this post popped out at me. Just to confirm, many offices already do have such a policy. Now I realize this part of the country doesn't normally get significant severe weather (which is why I didn't come on this thread ten minutes after the tornado hit calling that office all sorts of names) but something certainly went wrong that shouldn't have. Does that happen every once in a while? Most definitely. An example would be back on March 8, 2010. A strong, long track tornado ended up touching down on a cold-core day in NW OK (Hammon, OK) where tornadoes were not expected by SPC (who dropped all tornado risks with their 20Z outlook) and the OUN office (obviously since they're right next door to SPC). The Norman NWS (OUN) didn't issue a tornado warning until the tornado was on the ground for ten minutes, and only when other offices started to call in inquiring why there was no tornado warning because they themselves were watching live feeds from chasers showing a substantial tornado was the warning issued. So even an office so accustomed to severe weather can make mistakes, in that case, situational awareness was lost. Is it possible that occurred here? Sure, but so are dozens of other reasons.

That said, I plan on going back and doing some radar analysis and comparing it to the time the tornado warning was first issued. I'll post my detailed findings (and associated graphics) here when I'm done, which will likely be either today or Friday. Be sure to check back.

[The Great Zo]

ENX and several Northeast USA radars are available on our AWIPS system, but routinely with truncated data sets...normally just the lowest 4 angles on base data and some but not all of the derived products. As Eleanor mentioned, we have to initiate request programs on AWIPS in order to receive a broader data set.

External bandwidth has been such a hot-button issue since the winter storms brought the web servers to their knees, but this event certainly underscores the frustration all offices feel regarding internal bandwidth. Personally, I find it ridiculous that I have to jump through extra steps to see high-resolution data from radar sites that are closer to counties in my CWA than my own radar -- but I do it because I have to.

Now that I think of it, isn't bandwidth the reason they truncated super-res at the lowest three slices? Wouldn't it be nice to see that kind of detail for the whole volume scan?

I dream of a world in which RMRs are obsolete.

[weather01089]

Per request, this is the video I shot of the wall cloud/funnel on 6/1

I had trouble believing for a min or two that that huge wall cloud was a wall cloud. Wasnt expecting one that wide. Once I could visualize the rotation, on the phone with

the BOX ham coordinator I went pronto.

Ray