Your ideal climate

[A-L-E-X]

1892-93 through 2003-04 (obviously not all at high airport) Worcester saw just 8 storms of more than 20" per Kocin book...Albany saw 10 such storms from 1884-85 through 2003-04. Climate is more than what happened the last 20 years.

I like that location better for noreasters that take the "classic" track William. Does their climate record really go that far back? I only see the airports listed on the NOAA database.

[Guest Pamela]

I like that location better for noreasters that take the "classic" track William. Does their climate record really go that far back? I only see the airports listed on the NOAA database.

I wrote in the original post that the Worcester winter, especially up at the airport, is a little better than the Albany winter, though they're close.

I guess it does...though offhand I'm not sure where measurements were taken prior..likely somewhere in town...

[A-L-E-X]

I wrote in the original post that the Worcester winter, especially up at the airport, is a little better than the Albany winter, though they're close.

I guess it does...though offhand I'm not sure where measurements were taken prior..likely somewhere in town...

I think Will lives in the mountains north of the airport. It'd be interesting comparing the elevated areas around each city, I suspect they do much better than the airports.

[Guest Pamela]

Worcester sees more exciting storms than Albany though, I'd think...especially in the last few years with the dearth of coastal huggers. SNE really got killed in 04-05 for example with all the offshore coastals, and that winter wouldn't have been nearly as fascinating in Albany. I also think their elevation allows for more snowpack retention than the lowlands of the Hudson Valley; for instance, ORHWXMAN had 50" on the ground in March 2001, a snowpack that would be unimaginable in Albany. I'd much rather take the elevation than the slight increase in latitude. Also, the higher parts of Worcester are really snowy compared to the surrounding area, whereas ALB is a snowhole compared to its environs...the hills like Thatcher State Park get way more snow than downtown. It's nice to be the snowiest location in your area instead of feeling like a loser on most storms.

The latitude factor is almost entirely negligible; it wasn't even in my mind when I compared the towns...Albany does have an advantage in that cold air does not have to hurdle the Berkshires as well as the Green Mountains.

[free_man]

Spring Mar- June

Summer July - Aug

Fall Sept -Dec

Winter Jan-Feb

[nzucker]

I think Will lives in the mountains north of the airport. It'd be interesting comparing the elevated areas around each city, I suspect they do much better than the airports.

He does, and I believe his parents live on Winter Hill which is near 1000'. Those locations see a much better snowpack and many more snowstorms than the urban areas at 400' elevation. I'm sure Winter Hill has had more 20" events than Albany since 1893, but it's not reflected in the official record since the station used to be downtown, and obviously there's a massive difference between a busy street at 400' and a wooded hillside at 1000'. That's really a great area to live in since you have the elevation like the Berkshires but access to Boston. They also benefit from so many set-ups in winter including SW flow events, Nor'easters, and clippers.

The latitude factor is almost entirely negligible; it wasn't even in my mind when I compared the towns...Albany does have an advantage in that cold air does not have to hurdle the Berkshires as well as the Green Mountains.

Albany is definitely colder in winter than the lower elevations of downtown Worcester, it certainly receives more arctic air. ALB and BGM have really been suffering on snowfall since 02-03, however, just not a good stretch for Upstate NY with a lack of coastal huggers and SW flow events tracking too far north...I'm sure it'll change though and people on the coast will go back to complaining bitterly about the climatologically favored interior stealing their snow.

[free_man]

1892-93 through 2003-04 (obviously not all at high airport) Worcester saw just 8 storms of more than 20" per Kocin book...Albany saw 10 such storms from 1884-85 through 2003-04. Climate is more than what happened the last 20 years.

Beaten like a dead horse. ORH measurements were suspect for many years (Will knows more than I about this), also the measurements have not been at the airport near 1000' for the entire span of measurements, perhaps the past 20 to 25 years or so. ORH at airport avgs mid or high 60s which I am going to guess is slightly higher than ALB.

[noforsnow]

I know, my ideal will appeal to very few here, but since you did ask:

South Florida is a little too chilly for me in winter.

Ideal for me would be: Dry Season December to April with avg min 71 & max 85, Rainy season May to November with avg min 79 & Max 91. Always a breeze and good tropical downpours interspersed with hot sun during the rainy season; Lots of sun and a bit less humidity during the dry season, with occasional rains to keep it lush & green.

Sounds a bit like my old home, San Juan, PR

[Collinsville]

There are some areas in the Plains States that get lots of snowfall, like the Black Hills in western South Dakota. You should check out the town of Deadwood, it's at around 5500' elevation I believe, and they get blasted in winter. But you're generally right...it's a pretty dry climate but once in a while you get a true blizzard. I've never experienced a Plains Blizzard but am absolutely dying to road trip out there for a snowstorm with 75mph winds, temperatures dropping below 0F, and blowing snow reducing visibilities to near zero. What we have in the East doesn't hold a candle to what a hooking low can do to the Dakotas...the temperature contrast and winds in the open prairies are something we just can't fathom. Dakota Blizzard FTW.

Yeah, parts of the Black Hills get crushed with upslope. Lead, SD pops 10-40" storms like candy. They built a 73" snow pack in 5 days once only to lose it in 3 weeks! Nice looking country there too. Think I'll grab a lottery ticket

[New England Storm]

Lets see

1.Winter, I want winter from november to march. Winter can start slow with the temps getting colder each day. A mix of clear cool days and freezing nights would be nice. And winter storms would bring rain,wind snow,thunder ice ect. Storms in november would be more of a rain thunderstorms and wind. December to Feb would mostly snow and cold!

2.March would be winter to spring, Stormy weather with snow and rain. More warm weather to the end of the month.

3.Spring would warm with lots of thunder storms. Cold air aloft would bring hail! Warms days with cool nights. Not many prolonged rainstorms. Ex. 1 or less per year.

4.Summer time warm from Late May 80-85, low dewpoints until July, In july Hot Hazy Humid, A few very strong thunderstorm threats.

August- Lots of thunder, tstorm warnings would be typical.

5.Fall warmish weather, Lots of sun and a few rain storms.

[tamarack]

a snowstorm with 75mph winds, temperatures dropping below 0F, and blowing snow reducing visibilities to near zero. What we have in the East doesn't hold a candle to what a hooking low can do to the Dakotas...the temperature contrast and winds in the open prairies are something we just can't fathom. Dakota Blizzard FTW.

That's pretty much true, but Aroostook potato country sure comes close. The late March blizzard that capped their enormous 07-08 snow season came with winds gusting into the 50s, not 75, and with temps in singles and teens for the latter part of the 3-day storm rather than zero, but there was already 3-5' on the ground, so road-filling drifts formed minutes after a plow would pass through. CAR recorded 14" and had the same snow depth after as before; Ft. Kent had 17" at temps down to 8F and gained but 4" of snow depth, so I'm sure the snow was moving around a bit.

In March 1980, near the end of the least snowy winter of my 10 up there, Rt 1 between CAR and PQI was closed for almost 3 days, and when I drove there late on day 3, all traffic was diverted onto a downwind potato field because there were still 12-15' drifts over the pavement.

Wouldn't mind experiencing a winter at 2,500' in the Maine mts, but just about no one lives up there. NW aspects there must average 200"/yr or more, as in-town locations 1,000' lower and not in prime upslope get 120". Nice and cool in summer with excellent fishing, too.

[forkyfork]

something similar to what SE asia gets

[ORH_wxman]

1892-93 through 2003-04 (obviously not all at high airport) Worcester saw just 8 storms of more than 20" per Kocin book...Albany saw 10 such storms from 1884-85 through 2003-04. Climate is more than what happened the last 20 years.

They've had 2 20"+ since 2004...the Jan 2005 storm and the Jan 2011 storm totaling 10 now, however all of those but 1 have occurred since March 1960 as previous measurements (before 1948) were from a relatively poor coop site so I don't really trust the measurements prior to the airport site all that much. Dec '96 is also not "technically" a 20" storm since its officially listed as two storms but they occurred in a total span of 36 hours for 26.3" (they were much closer together than the Feb '94 storms even though that is listed at 1 storm).They also have had 7 additional storms of 18" or more but less than 20" in that time (since '60). Kind of a weird anomaly on that part to have that many storms within a 2" margin. ORH is definitely a better place than ALB for snowfall but not for arctic cold on the whole. Once you get up the slope out of the Hudson Valley, that begins to change. I think the longterm mean since 1950 (when the current Worcester site really began and snowfall measurements on the whole became more homogeneous) is about 69" for ORH and 62" for ALB. Dowtown ORH would be closer but probably still better few a few inches, maybe 65"-ish.

I was often surprised at how often I'd leave here with a full snowpack to find it nearly bare in the valley there in ALB on my trips back and forth to Cornell (Ithaca NY). So the snow pack retention is better than the valley too. But once I got up to around Cobleskill area W of ALB, I'd see the full snow pack return in many cases.

I actually found this thread by accident search for something else, which is why I'm responding to it 4 months later. I guess I never saw it back in winter.

[Mikehobbyst]

This thread immediately is a give away that SNE climatology is not the "ideal climate" for too many. The backdoor capital of the USA is not going to cut it as Ideal, 95 and TRW in DC and Philly and 60 and drizzle in BOX is a reality sometimes and not fun.

[ORH_wxman]

This thread immediately is a give away that SNE climatology is not the "ideal climate" for too many. The backdoor capital of the USA is not going to cut it as Ideal, 95 and TRW in DC and Philly and 60 and drizzle in BOX is a reality sometimes and not fun.

I can't speak for everyone here, but I actually do not mind putting up with the horrible back door fronts in spring if it means I'll be 77-82F and nice most of the summer versus 96F and humid like further south. We pay for it in the spring with drizzle, clouds, rain and temps in the 40s and 50s, but that's a small price to pay for me to avoid 2-3 months of hot/humid hell. Plus, further south gets 40s and rain...just about two months sooner than when its normal here.

Spring is definitely the worst season here though. There is no doubt about that unless you really hate snow, which in that case, you probably shouldn't live at 42-43N, but I know its not always that easy. Everyone has their own little preferences.

[OSUmetstud]

I think Chautauqua County NY would be a cool place from people who are interested in both very snowy winters and a decent amount of severe weather. Also, Springs are better than SNE there, and the summer is cooler than the coastal plain of SNE at least.

[free_man]

Spring (mostly April/May) is by far the best and ideal season here in NE, followed closely by Autumn. The awakening of plant life and animals, the rising sun angle, the pollen in the air...nothing beats it.

If it were not for backdoors and 40s-50s drizzle, the warmer days would not feel as warm relatively. Ask any mid atlantic poster or wx enthusiast. When it's 80 in March there, while we are 42 and heavy snowpack. They are already acclimated with our "early summer" and their winter is our Spring.

Then thinking about living in southern portions of gulf coast states, where some winters the temps do not drop below 40 ...for years... five or ten winters spent down there , and Cape Cod climate (notoriously harsh to winter enthusiasts as we know) is feeling more like Antartica.

[dendrite]

Jan -45F 5" snow

Feb 15F 50" snow

Mar 15F 50" snow

Apr 70F

May 90F and severe

Jun 100F

Jul 110F 0.00" rain

Aug 100F

Sep 70F with frosts

Oct 30F 30" snow

Nov 15F 50" snow

Dec 15F 50" snow

lol

[Damage In Tolland]

Cold and snowy with no warmth in the winter

Heat and humidity with severe often in the summer with no cool days or mornings

[Mr Torchey]

Sunny and 85 with a dew point of 60 during the day, night time lows around 58................365 days a year.

[ski MRG]

Snow, heavy at times, all the time. Never above 20 degrees.

[wxmanmitch]

St. John's, Newfoundland would be, without question, my ideal climate. Cool, foggy summers with very stormy (and not too cold) winters featuring frequent blizzards that can become occluded and stall for days while they spin themselves out (i.e. 50-50 lows). St. John's averages 127" of snow a winter. Although they can be rain and 40s while we're in the midst of an arctic outbreak, I'd crave the stormy pattern that they experience each winter. I've also heard that St. John's is a pretty cool place. Pretty much anywhere in the Canadian Maritimes (or eastern Maine) would fit the bill for me, though. Lake effect snow just doesn't cut it for me in terms of excitement, even if some places get a lot of it. The antithesis of my ideal climate would probably be that of Texas or Oklahoma. The thought of living under the death ridge for months at a time practically kills me...

[TalcottWx]

Im in my idea climate

[tamarack]

1892-93 through 2003-04 (obviously not all at high airport) Worcester saw just 8 storms of more than 20" per Kocin book...Albany saw 10 such storms from 1884-85 through 2003-04. Climate is more than what happened the last 20 years.

The ORH data below came from the "Top 15" thread on Eastern in (IIRC) Feb. 2009, with the 2011 event added. That 12/1996 is considered 2 events, I just learned reading this thread today.

33.0"...3/31-4/1/1997

32.1"...12/11-12/1992

26.3"...12/6-7/1996

24.7"...2/14/1962

24.1"...1/22-23/2005

22.1"...3/3/1960

22.0"...3/4-6/2001

21.1"...1/12/2011

20.8"...2/17-18/2003

20.2"...2/6-7/1978

20.1"...3/13-14/1993

19.6"...2/23-27/1969

18.8"...3/20/1958

18.8"...2/4/1961

18.7...1/19-20/1961

The 11 events of 20"+ (including 12/96 as one storm) match Kocin's 8, since 2 occurred after 2004. However, I find it very odd that ORH would have zero 20" storms in 65 winters 1892-93 thru 1956-57, then get 10 or 11 in the next 54.

Hard to comprehend how ORH missed 20" from the 2/69 "100 hr storm", especially since nearly all the difference between 26.1" at BOS and 19.6" at ORH came on days 2 and 3, when farther inland locations like Pinkham Notch, and Farmington, Maine were getting buried.

[ORH_wxman]

The ORH data below came from the "Top 15" thread on Eastern in (IIRC) Feb. 2009, with the 2011 event added. That 12/1996 is considered 2 events, I just learned reading this thread today.

33.0"...3/31-4/1/1997

32.1"...12/11-12/1992

26.3"...12/6-7/1996

24.7"...2/14/1962

24.1"...1/22-23/2005

22.1"...3/3/1960

22.0"...3/4-6/2001

21.1"...1/12/2011

20.8"...2/17-18/2003

20.2"...2/6-7/1978

20.1"...3/13-14/1993

19.6"...2/23-27/1969

18.8"...3/20/1958

18.8"...2/4/1961

18.7...1/19-20/1961

The 11 events of 20"+ (including 12/96 as one storm) match Kocin's 8, since 2 occurred after 2004. However, I find it very odd that ORH would have zero 20" storms in 65 winters 1892-93 thru 1956-57, then get 10 or 11 in the next 54.

Hard to comprehend how ORH missed 20" from the 2/69 "100 hr storm", especially since nearly all the difference between 26.1" at BOS and 19.6" at ORH came on days 2 and 3, when farther inland locations like Pinkham Notch, and Farmington, Maine were getting buried.

They actually got 24.5" in the February 1899 storm which I discovered after making that list on eastern, but I guess maybe it wasn't mentioned in the Kocin book totals. BOX also lists them as having got 25" on Feb 22, 1893 but I never have confirmed that. But the general point still stands on the oddity of a long period of no 20"+ storms and then a whole bunch of them. Hell, 7 or 8 (if you count '96) have occurred just since 1992.

The other oddity I thought was the number of 18"+ storms that were also less than 20". You list 4 of them there, but there is also 4/9-10/96 (18.0"), 12/23/97 (18.0"), and 2/5/01 (18.5").

[ineedsnow]

baldwin mills quebec without a doubt!

[tamarack]

They actually got 24.5" in the February 1899 storm which I discovered after making that list on eastern, but I guess maybe it wasn't mentioned in the Kocin book totals. BOX also lists them as having got 25" on Feb 22, 1893 but I never have confirmed that. But the general point still stands on the oddity of a long period of no 20"+ storms and then a whole bunch of them. Hell, 7 or 8 (if you count '96) have occurred just since 1992.

The other oddity I thought was the number of 18"+ storms that were also less than 20". You list 4 of them there, but there is also 4/9-10/96 (18.0"), 12/23/97 (18.0"), and 2/5/01 (18.5").

Not many locations have pre-1900 snowfall records, at least not at the UCC site, my usual source. The three in south/central Maine with 2/1893 data, Farmington, Gardiner, and Lewiston, all show 22-23" total from two storms, 13-15" on 2/20 and 8-9" on 2/22, with zero for the 21st. (Admittedly, multi-day events from that era often have the event total recorded on one of the days.)

Farmington might be even more odd for 18.0-19.9" events. Starting 1/1893, they've recorded 16 storms of 20"+ (1st was 3/1900, most recent 2/2009) but have also had 15 more storms 18"+ but under 20, 1st was 2/1898 and most recent was 12/2008. They've also had 14 storms 16.0-17.9" and much larger totals for successively lower 2" classes. Of note, only 5 of the 16 20-inchers were more than 24", same as for ORH if either the 2/1899 or 12/1996 are included.

And my above post cheats BOS of 0.2" in 2/69; total should be 26.3".

[ORH_wxman]

Not many locations have pre-1900 snowfall records, at least not at the UCC site, my usual source. The three in south/central Maine with 2/1893 data, Farmington, Gardiner, and Lewiston, all show 22-23" total from two storms, 13-15" on 2/20 and 8-9" on 2/22, with zero for the 21st. (Admittedly, multi-day events from that era often have the event total recorded on one of the days.)

Farmington might be even more odd for 18.0-19.9" events. Starting 1/1893, they've recorded 16 storms of 20"+ (1st was 3/1900, most recent 2/2009) but have also had 15 more storms 18"+ but under 20, 1st was 2/1898 and most recent was 12/2008. They've also had 14 storms 16.0-17.9" and much larger totals for successively lower 2" classes. Of note, only 5 of the 16 20-inchers were more than 24", same as for ORH if either the 2/1899 or 12/1996 are included.

And my above post cheats BOS of 0.2" in 2/69; total should be 26.3".

The Worcester coop from back then lists 28" total over what looks like 3 events between Feb 18th and Feb 22, 1893...so that still doesn't match up with the BOX 25" total. But as you already mentioned, the coops would often not do a great job of recording multi-day snowfalls in each time period and sometimes would just lump it all into one day. But it appears to me to have been at least two events given the other coop data you cited.

That's pretty nuts on the Farmington 18-20" storms. The ones at ORH have all been since 1958. I didn't look at the old site, but if I did, off the top of my head I could include the November 1898 storm in there with 18"...not sure how many others would fit the bill at the old site. The older data is very difficult to trust since you see a lot of missing data too. I know some coops have been incredibly accurate over the years going back to the late 1800s but I think those are more the exception rather than the rule.

[ice1972]

Easy.....Lake Tahoe......massive amounts of snow period.....warm summers but cool to almost cold at night with low dews......thunderstorms but not usually severe.....fantastic place and close enough to sac and Reno.....

[tamarack]

The Worcester coop from back then lists 28" total over what looks like 3 events between Feb 18th and Feb 22, 1893...so that still doesn't match up with the BOX 25" total. But as you already mentioned, the coops would often not do a great job of recording multi-day snowfalls in each time period and sometimes would just lump it all into one day. But it appears to me to have been at least two events given the other coop data you cited.

That's pretty nuts on the Farmington 18-20" storms. The ones at ORH have all been since 1958. I didn't look at the old site, but if I did, off the top of my head I could include the November 1898 storm in there with 18"...not sure how many others would fit the bill at the old site. The older data is very difficult to trust since you see a lot of missing data too. I know some coops have been incredibly accurate over the years going back to the late 1800s but I think those are more the exception rather than the rule.

1st boldface: Those 3 Maine coops each had minor snow (0.8" to 1.8") recorded for 2/18/1893. Maybe a storm that hit harder to the south?

2nd boldface, and written in disappointment: Two of those 3 coops, Gardiner and Lewiston, apparently ceased recordkeeping last year - at least according to UCC info. They both had nearly complete records back into the 1800s, Gardiner back thru 1886. It's my only Maine data, for instance, for the Blizzard of 1888. (They got 8" of probable mush at near-32 temps.) Wx data strings become exponentially more valuable , IMO, as they grow longer. The cessation of these well over 100 yr observations is, to me, a major loss. I still look around, but at this time Farmington appears to offer the only reasonabvly complete data set extending back beyond 1900. (Several other stations go back to 1893 or 1894, but all that I've discovered have gaping holes in the data, multi-year stretches where everything is "9999".) The Farmington coop observer is probably well into his 70s (though still healthy enough to serve as Cty Sheriff), and I've no idea if anyone would be there to pick up the torch.

Wasn't there some controversy a decade or two back when observations were discontinued at HVN (at Yale?) IIRC, they had records back to around 1850, now not to be easily found.

Edit: Belfast (west side of Penobscot Bay) recorded 10" on 2/18-19/1893, apparently from a decent storm too far east to do much away from the coast. (Note: Belfast records are blank for 1904-1944, and obs also ended last year.)

Checking my spreadsheet, I found pretty good coverage 1895 on at WVL. They changed location in 1958, losing 16' elev, but other than that (and consistently lower snowfall reports than nearby stations), it's good stuff and continuing (so far.)