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Baroclinic Zone

Spring Banter

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1 hour ago, weathafella said:

I think those of us with milder symptoms have crappier immune responses..lol.

Maybe - I've read this from people who ought to know.  However, I've never knowingly had the flu - vaccinated or not - and have infrequent mild colds, also very rarely get infections from the frequent scrapes and cuts inherent with bushwhacking thru the Maine woods and playing in the firewood pile.  My Moderna symptoms were all but non-existent (#1) and some arm soreness plus a bit of fatigue the day after #2, which I'd describe as mild.

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12 minutes ago, tamarack said:

Maybe - I've read this from people who ought to know.  However, I've never knowingly had the flu - vaccinated or not - and have infrequent mild colds, also very rarely get infections from the frequent scrapes and cuts inherent with bushwhacking thru the Maine woods and playing in the firewood pile.  My Moderna symptoms were all but non-existent (#1) and some arm soreness plus a bit of fatigue the day after #2, which I'd describe as mild.

Yeah who knows?   I have a friend who so far (10 years) has beat stomach cancer.  He’s 80 and was sick for 2 days after Moderna shot #2.   Women react more than men I think at least that’s most people’s observation.

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12 minutes ago, weathafella said:

Yeah who knows?   I have a friend who so far (10 years) has beat stomach cancer.  He’s 80 and was sick for 2 days after Moderna shot #2.   Women react more than men I think at least that’s most people’s observation.

Anecdotal reports must always be approached with caution. I'm sure you dealt with that a lot as a medical professional. Something like an anxiety disorder, for example, can mimic the effects of a real issue such as COVID or a pending heart attack: fatigue, feeling flushed/warm, chest tightness, chest pain, rapid heart rate, aches, and perceived difficulty breathing.

More time will be needed to get a better idea of how many of these vaccine reaction stories are dealing with issues like the above, where someone was so concerned about the vaccine side effects and COVID in general that they were hyper-attuned to every little issue as being related to the vaccine somehow. Obviously, some people have had major, clear reactions to the vaccine, but that is rare.

I think this actually explains a decent number of the "weird" symptoms for COVID and the vaccine that are routinely repeated by the media. They are not actually related to the vaccine or the virus at all, but people made that connection in their minds, and then others who read or hear about it then make the connection for their own symptoms.

And this may be another of my unpopular opinions, but I am little suspicious of the long-haul symptom talk right now. We need more time and diligence to study that before making a ruling. At one time in the very recent past, for example, experts were sure that asymptomatic carriers were silently spreading COVID all over the place, but recent research is starting to show that isn't the case, making COVID more like basically every other respiratory virus we know about. Those with symptoms are by far the biggest spreaders.

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5 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

Anecdotal reports must always be approached with caution. I'm sure you dealt with that a lot as a medical professional. Something like an anxiety disorder, for example, can mimic the effects of a real issue such as COVID or a pending heart attack: fatigue, feeling flushed/warm, chest tightness, chest pain, rapid heart rate, aches, and perceived difficulty breathing.

More time will be needed to get a better idea of how many of these vaccine reaction stories are dealing with issues like the above, where someone was so concerned about the vaccine side effects and COVID in general that they were hyper-attuned to every little issue as being related to the vaccine somehow. Obviously, some people have had major, clear reactions to the vaccine, but that is rare.

I think this actually explains a decent number of the "weird" symptoms for COVID and the vaccine that are routinely repeated by the media. They are not actually related to the vaccine or the virus at all, but people made that connection in their minds, and then others who read or hear about it then make the connection for their own symptoms.

And this my another of my unpopular opinions, but I am little suspicious of the long-haul symptom talk right now. We need more time and diligence to study that before making a ruling. At one time in the very recent past, for example, experts were sure that asymptomatic carriers were silently spreading COVID all over the place, but recent research is starting to show that isn't the case, making COVID more like basically every other respiratory virus we know about. Those with symptoms are by far the biggest spreaders.

Of course!   But certain trends should be studied further.   The question is do the results make a difference?  If women actually are more susceptible to a reaction but all recover in a day or 2 what is added other than knowing what we already suspected?   There are a ton of unknowns.  Why do some young people not react at all?   Why do some high risk old people have strong reactions?   How much is psychosomatic?

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20 hours ago, PhineasC said:

You sound very typical to me. Deal with guys like you all the time.

I hope you are a very technical high-performer. If so, you are absolutely staying in-character as expected and your boss is perfectly happy with you and understands you. Most top engineers and technicians think exactly like you. Good bosses are used to this and it is not a problem. That's basically 80% of my staff.

If not, I would suggest looking over your shoulder. Your job isn't secure if that is the attitude you bring to the table in basically any non-technical field, or if you are in a technical field and just a so-so performer.

yes, I am.  but I would argue that a flexible work environment and being able to WFH is what enables me to be a high performer.  the office is a terrible place for getting actual work done, man.

my guess is you're an older gen-Xer or a boomer.  they perceive people who WFH as anti-social or lazy.  i'm fully aware that, in a hybrid environment, people are going  to discriminate in favor of people who they see in the office more.  that's not going to change until these older generations retire from management.  thats why i encourage people to periodically go into the office, because they have to manage perceptions and optics.  they have to manage their manager, basically.  

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3 hours ago, MJO812 said:

Mom has a fever. 101.

I have bad shoulder pain and chills

 

And to think this is the 1st shot

 

I don't even want to know how the 2nd will react 

didn't you have COVID?

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3 hours ago, weathafella said:

Of course!   But certain trends should be studied further.   The question is do the results make a difference?  If women actually are more susceptible to a reaction but all recover in a day or 2 what is added other than knowing what we already suspected?   There are a ton of unknowns.  Why do some young people not react at all?   Why do some high risk old people have strong reactions?   How much is psychosomatic?

Psychosomatic symptoms occur obviously, but I also think there is a rush to explain away symptoms that are hard to understand and put them into a box by labeling them this way. This occurs with chronic pain patients who have complex ailments/injuries that go years trying to find answers. Typically the answer in these cases are they are not pyschosomatic, which brings a great deal of frustration to the patient.

I suspect the immune reponse has a lot to do with the stronger side effects being noted with patients that are on their second dose or previously had COVID. I find some of the recent stories regarding altering of women’s menstrual cycles after the vaccine interesting, is this brought on by stress, the nanoparticles in the vaccine or the known side effects of the shots including fever in some cases. It is certainly worth studying the impacts and assume they do matter at this stage, both short and long term. This is true of both the virus and the vaccines.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/9/22374523/covid-vaccine-period-heavy-survey


 

 

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2 hours ago, fujiwara79 said:

yes, I am.  but I would argue that a flexible work environment and being able to WFH is what enables me to be a high performer.  the office is a terrible place for getting actual work done, man.

my guess is you're an older gen-Xer or a boomer.  they perceive people who WFH as anti-social or lazy.  i'm fully aware that, in a hybrid environment, people are going  to discriminate in favor of people who they see in the office more.  that's not going to change until these older generations retire from management.  thats why i encourage people to periodically go into the office, because they have to manage perceptions and optics.  they have to manage their manager, basically.  

I haven't been into an office since 2005, I miss mingling with my coworkers and going out for a bite and a beer but I get much more done WFH. I'm in contact with the people I work with almost daily and we'll still go out and meet for lunch periodically.

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15 minutes ago, White Rain said:

Psychosomatic symptoms occur obviously, but I also think there is a rush to explain away symptoms that are hard to understand and put them into a box by labeling them this way. This occurs with chronic pain patients who have complex ailments/injuries that go years trying to find answers. Typically the answer in these cases are they are not pyschosomatic, which brings a great deal of frustration to the patient.

I suspect the immune reponse has a lot to do with the stronger side effects being noted with patients that are on their second dose or previously had COVID. I find some of the recent stories regarding altering of women’s menstrual cycles after the vaccine interesting, is this brought on by stress, the nanoparticles in the vaccine or the known side effects of the shots including fever in some cases. It is certainly worth studying the impacts and assume they do matter at this stage, both short and long term. This is true of both the virus and the vaccines.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/9/22374523/covid-vaccine-period-heavy-survey


 

 

I don’t see that.  mRNA is an established methodology.   It makes total sense that the 2nd shot should result in a stronger reaction-the trials showed that.  It doesn’t seem that there are reactions that would be unexpected TBH.   But there is a subset of the population that reacts to everything including placebos.  

We also have routine patients that present with symptoms with no physical basis.   Sometimes evaluating the gain in the game or the real mental conditions driving the behavior is revealing.  The old word was malingering.

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4 hours ago, weathafella said:

Yeah who knows?   I have a friend who so far (10 years) has beat stomach cancer.  He’s 80 and was sick for 2 days after Moderna shot #2.   Women react more than men I think at least that’s most people’s observation.

I haven’t even had a cold in years. Zero reaction 

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30 minutes ago, weathafella said:

I don’t see that.  mRNA is an established methodology.   It makes total sense that the 2nd shot should result in a stronger reaction-the trials showed that.  It doesn’t seem that there are reactions that would be unexpected TBH.   But there is a subset of the population that reacts to everything including placebos.  

We also have routine patients that present with symptoms with no physical basis.   Sometimes evaluating the gain in the game or the real mental conditions driving the behavior is revealing.  The old word was malingering.

This is my personal experience with regards to chronic health issues, which I realize is a different context then a vaccine but it is very prevelant in that arena so to speak. In my experience it took multiple poor diagnosis and self advocacy to get to the bottom of it. When doctors do not believe you and you have hard to explain symptoms with no easily discoverable physical basis. This increases mental anquish so it is easy to misdiagnose.  I think women are treated this way more frequently as they can be labeled as overly emotional. I acknowledge there is a placebo effect, but there are also many cases where people have unexplained symptoms that can actually be attributed to a real cause. They are misdiagnosed because the doctors don’t have answers and the patient may be seen as suffering mentally as well. I personally believe the mental diagnosis is over used to explain away the symptoms.

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8 minutes ago, White Rain said:

This is my personal experience with regards to chronic health issues, which I realize is a different context then a vaccine but it is very prevelant in that arena so to speak. In my experience it took multiple poor diagnosis and self advocacy to get to the bottom of it. When doctors do not believe you and you have hard to explain symptoms with no easily discoverable physical basis. This increases mental anquish so it is easy to misdiagnose.  I think women are treated this way more frequently as they can be labeled as overly emotional. I acknowledge there is a placebo effect, but there are also many cases where people have unexplained symptoms that can actually be attributed to a real cause. They are misdiagnosed because the doctors don’t have answers and the patient may be seen as suffering mentally as well. I personally believe the mental diagnosis is over used to explain away the symptoms.

I’m sorry you experienced that.  In my fairly narrow world, certain signs have 2 possible origins-disease that is missed or unexplained.  It’s easier not to miss disease with the amount of high tech available but at the same time tons of providers don’t even want to consider the fact that they’re wrong.  That is unacceptable to me. In my years being an older provider with tons of experience, I questioned myself much more than I did decades ago.  Like everything else, youth is wasted on the young.

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57 minutes ago, MJO812 said:

Yes

probably why your side effects are so strong after the first dose. You should talk to your doctor about the second shot. When I was reading about side effects/symptoms it's entirely possible for your doctor to recommend not getting the second dose if you've had COVID and had a strong response to the first dose.

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3 hours ago, MJO812 said:

Yes

that's why your 1st shot is rough.   People that have had COVID tend to see stronger side effects on the 1st shot while people that have not had it have stronger side effects on the 2nd dose.  Seems the 2nd time your body sees it you get the worst effects

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The anecdotal evidence I’ve seen with the vaccines are that those with underlying conditions or are generally susceptible to being sick have tougher reactions. My dad is 83 and is in great health. Never gets sick. Had almost no reaction to both doses. Same with my father in law. My dads brother has rheumatoid arthritis and was down for 4 days. My mother is 84 and has lupus. She was down 5 days.  Other anecdotes seem close to the same idea. And my mother had tough reaction to the shingles vaccine. My dad had no issue. 

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31 minutes ago, WhitinsvilleWX said:

The anecdotal evidence I’ve seen with the vaccines are that those with underlying conditions or are generally susceptible to being sick have tougher reactions. My dad is 83 and is in great health. Never gets sick. Had almost no reaction to both doses. Same with my father in law. My dads brother has rheumatoid arthritis and was down for 4 days. My mother is 84 and has lupus. She was down 5 days.  Other anecdotes seem close to the same idea. And my mother had tough reaction to the shingles vaccine. My dad had no issue. 

I’m beginning to think that all pathogenic infections of the biological kingdom have always carried on with that same preferential symptomatic sequence/impact based upon susceptibility model.

And that the main difference between COVID-19, vs all those before it is that C-19 is hyper focused to the point where any f-ing sneeze or butt itch is being documented as a horror story. 

Sure people with lupus ...probably legitimately getting sacked. Sure. That would be true with the flu, and it would probably be true with cancer too. Only so much any body can take. If one is carrying around heart disease and then they get a head cold it probably gonna be magnified - it’s always been that way.

This is what happens when CNN and Fox News are the instructors for society

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11 hours ago, radarman said:

UMass up 3-0 in the 2nd in the NCAA hockey final

Edit- 4-0 after 2

Edit- 5-0 final!  National Champs!

Pretty amazing program they have there.  Well deserved.  The other 3 Frozen 4 teams were all from Minnesota which is funny

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15 hours ago, weatherwiz said:

didn't you have COVID?

I never had it but last night was rough for me after my J&J shot yesterday morning. Body aches, chills, slight fever. Could be barely sleep. 

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14 hours ago, Ginx snewx said:

I haven’t even had a cold in years. Zero reaction 

Yeah, I'm in the same camp. Haven't had a sniffle in sixteen years, so I assume I have a solid immune system. But I had virtually no reaction to the vaccine other than a two hour period of brain-fog, so not sure how to interpret that.

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I feel alot better this morning

I had 12 hours of sleep

Headache and chills went away

Just a slightly sore arm

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4 hours ago, RUNNAWAYICEBERG said:

I never had it but last night was rough for me after my J&J shot yesterday morning. Body aches, chills, slight fever. Could be barely sleep. 

My brother got the J&J shot yesterday too...I guess they had a walk-up clinic or something in New Britain. He got the same symptoms as well. 

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It seems from these anecdotal accounts bandied about in this social media that a pattern emerges.  It is as though the vaccine spectrum of induced symptoms is perhaps proportional, just shift the whole scale toward much less severe.

Take a population and some few will need critical care to resolve ...or even die, ranging to just a short few days of inconvenience for the majority ..etc. 

Perhaps those that 'would have' needed that urgent care...those are the ones getting more harsh vaccine reactions ... 

 

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10 minutes ago, Typhoon Tip said:

 

Take a population and some few will need critical care to resolve ...or even die, ranging to just a short few days of inconvenience for the majority ..etc.  ... 

 

I know your post was in the context of vaccines, but, from my sources, at least in Massachusetts, a lot of those in the hospital for Covid are there because they need the care once they get finished with oxygen therapy. They are still in the hospital because the step down care isn’t available. The LTC facilities won’t take them if they are still positive. People who actually have a nice urban/suburban single family home to go to are discharged home. For those who live in multigenerational tenement type housing, the family may not want them home if they are still infectious. So they stay on the hospital census until they can move them to a facility to finish recovery. For the 700 or so in Massachusetts’ hospitals, I’d estimate half don't need hospital level care if what I’m hearing from my hospital based MD and social worker friends are correct. 

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Just now, WhitinsvilleWX said:

From my sources, at least in Massachusetts, a lot of those in the hospital are there because they need the care once they get finished with oxygen therapy. They are still in the hospital because the step down care isn’t available. The LTC facilities won’t take them if they are still positive. People who actually have a nice urban/suburban single family home to go to are discharged home. For those who live in multigenerational tenement type housing, the family may not want them home if they are still infectious. So they stay on the hospital census until they can move them to a facility to finish recovery. For the 700 or so in Massachusetts’ hospitals, I’d estimate half don't need hospital level care if what I’m hearing from my hospital based MD and social worker friends are correct. 

Gonna be so interesting to see the studies that come out in a few years with scrubbed/adjusted case, hospitalization, and death numbers. You will need to search for them because they will be buried and not reported by the MSM.

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