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2 hours ago, nwohweather said:


Unabridged capitalism always works. It’s why we have an economy worth $21.5 Trillion, 25% of the entire world’s economy with 5% of its population. There’s really no safety net for small businesses as you have to have outputs, and that’s what is going wrong here. I know this is a left leaning forum but I can’t deny the education I’ve gotten since earning a business degree in college, it’s staggering to see the raw efficiency in our country as opposed to Europe.

But living in wide open Charleston I’m gonna tell you by and large no one cares about this pandemic. Just tons of vacationers are flocking these states, crowding places and taking a vacation from wearing a mask. I’m interested to see if a national law would work, it’d help us out down here a lot.

Thank you for putting up those numbers. I'm still waiting for the utopian example of socialism on the global scene. And I don't mean some low-density N. European country playing socialism while their lifestyle would shout otherwise.

Ofc you know it's also peak tourist season up here and when I was north a week ago there were tons of out of state plates. Not quite as convenient for the New Englanders to head this way but you'd be surprised how many Maryland plates you see here in the "3rd Coast" state.

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On 6/26/2020 at 5:52 PM, Hoosier said:

I guess I don't understand why the mask thing has become a big deal.  People act like it's some massive infringement.  Yes, it's inconvenient and uncomfortable especially when worn for a long time, but I look at it as a temporary measure to try to get us through this period of time.  I'll change my tune if the mask rules become a permanent thing, but for now, just going to deal with it.   

Part of me said "hey, some occupations routinely require PPE, so this isn't much different than if I were in one of those". Had my state's governor re-assured us this was for a defined period of weeks to "flatten the curve" and allow our free-market society to continue to function versus shutting it down, I would have been much less adverse to it. Instead, the approach of dictatorship was a huge red flag for someone who does not believe that "big government" (let alone global government) has my best interest at heart nor any concern for my human rights as an individual. Trust 'em with an inch and they'll likely be back to take your mile as well.

We've had two pandemics ('57 and '68) that were 600% more deadly and society was not shut down for either.

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19 hours ago, HillsdaleMIWeather said:

This. I work in a grocery store five days a week and we just opened up the bottle room, their "individual freedom" doesn't give me or any of us a choice. 

Look, I'm not responding because I wish to trivialize yours or anyone's concerns of catching C-19 or any unpleasant sickness spread in society. People likely wouldn't understand fears I have. I will say tho, that in all these months of shopping I've not had one single cashier or other store worker even give me a look of disdain for not wearing a mask. There's a woman at my local supermarket who is like "the boss lady" with a lot of years working there and seniority. She is there constantly morning noon and night I see her working. I asked her if she was tired of the whole masking deal. She told me she was so over it and would not be wearing one if management wasn't dictating such. She's no youngster either. Guessing 50's to maybe even 60 so leaning higher risk end of the spectrum.

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7 minutes ago, cyclone77 said:

We've been wearing masks 8+hrs a day at work the last 2 1/2 months, so throwing on a mask to run into a store quick is no biggie to me.  Hopefully someday we won't need to wear them, but that looks to be a long way off.

I like the fact that people are using hand sanitizer, washing more often, and keeping shopping carts, card swipe machines, etc disinfected. These are common sense public place hygiene practices that quite frankly our culture has been sorely lax with for years. This should've been SOP for decades, especially for any establishment related to food prep and service. I'm pretty disgusted if I approach an entry door to an eatery (fast food or otherwise) and notice tons of hand smears all over the glass and the handle looks like it's never been cleaned in it's existence. Talk about a germ/bacteria/virus transmitter in full effect!

As for current pandemic "threat" and donning a mask. I'm ok with the idea if you have to be in close confines with a stranger for any length of time not just passing them. Such as sitting in a chair to get my hair cut. When eating and drinking you can't keep it on anyways, so bars and eateries best avenue is just spacing tables apart. Since I'm not a fan of over-crowded rowdy pubs I guess that's actually the ideal side-effect for me personally. 

 

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All this bleating about the economy is pointless. The argument is about wearing a mask, if you want to bring the economy up and why stuff is remaining closed, it is because people refuse to wear masks causing us not to relax the curve. It is really simple, wear a damn mask.

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6 hours ago, Jonger said:

This is going to destroy our way of live just to give people with 1 foot in the grave a bit of extra time on earth.

I'm in Mackinaw city right now, it's clear that half of these businesses are going to be completely put out of business. This is just a small view into what's going to happen if we keep going with these restrictions.

Total lockdown works in some cultures and places, but it won't work here. Almost nobody wears a mask outside once you venture away from larger cities.

Just let it rip and let's build herd immunity and move on. Some people will still wear masks and stay home, but most won't. Truthfully, I would be shocked if I didn't contract it myself already.

Folks much better educated and trained in human immunology than self have gone on record stating that our immune system actually weakens and our resistance drops as we isolate from exposure to societal "stuff". The isolation thing is a stall tactic at best, but eventually if it finds you, your immunity strength will be key. I've personally had a compromised immune system back in the 90's and suffered a great illness so I've been cognizant of that in my daily lifestyle wrt changing my habits to an extreme.

I'd love to think I could pin my hopes on some vaccine too, but with the history of those doing as much harm as good (in some cases much more harm than good - see 1976 flu vaccine horrors for example), there's no guarantee that would be a viable option to herd immunity either. As usual tho, we want big pharma to produce another magic bullet. Why don't we consider alternative approaches like building people's natural defense to ward off the viral intruder? Wouldn't it be great if there were highly educated people eagerly preparing such an option?  

2 hours ago, Jonger said:

Let's see the unemployment figures once the cash runs out.

If you're out of work, you're out of work and have probably filed for benefits so you'd be in the 21% unemployed attm. Unless you are referring to private contractor types that are self-employed and thus not really part of the whole UIA system in the first place. 

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7 minutes ago, Stebo said:

All this bleating about the economy is pointless. The argument is about wearing a mask, if you want to bring the economy up and why stuff is remaining closed, it is because people refuse to wear masks causing us not to relax the curve. It is really simple, wear a damn mask.

Whether you're personally in a position to accept it or not, there are many points to be made about the economic impact of C-19. Many here have been doing just that and what gives you the right to bully them not to continue to do so? Economically depressed lives matter! To some, that may be their only reality of this entire historical episode. But they can't comment? Now they have to forfeit that freedom of opinion as well? Perhaps you should hand over your next two paychecks to someone who's been put out of work by this to better understand the perspective.

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I agree in not putting all the hope in a vaccine.  I mean, I think there will be one or multiple, but we have no idea how effective it will be.  It would be nice to get one that is wildly successful but it would be wise to keep expectations in check.

Look at what has been learned in the past several months.  Not rushing to intubate people even if their oxygen levels are shockingly low, a couple preexisting drugs that reduce hospital stay/mortality to some extent, etc.  Even among the people who have comorbidities/are older, they are in a better position to survive than they were several months ago.  And in a few more months, perhaps they will be even more likely to survive than they would be right now, before any potential vaccine.     

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I like how being politely asked to wear a mask is (to some) somehow having their human rights stepped all over. Sheesh, wearing a mask isn’t that big of a deal, people. Doctors and surgeons in hospitals wear them all day long and have been for decades. You don’t complain about having to wear clothes and shoes in public, so why a freaking mask during a new virus pandemic we are still learning about? All this “my human rights are being violated” garbage is just despicable verbiage.

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56 minutes ago, RogueWaves said:

Whether you're personally in a position to accept it or not, there are many points to be made about the economic impact of C-19. Many here have been doing just that and what gives you the right to bully them not to continue to do so? Economically depressed lives matter! To some, that may be their only reality of this entire historical episode. But they can't comment? Now they have to forfeit that freedom of opinion as well? Perhaps you should hand over your next two paychecks to someone who's been put out of work by this to better understand the perspective.

When they are speaking out about not wearing masks they are talking out of both sides of their mouths. "Oh the economy but I will do nothing to help slow the spread"

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This has little to do with the masks for me. This about limiting business activity and injecting fear into society for something very few need to fear. 

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1 hour ago, Jonger said:

This has little to do with the masks for me. This about limiting business activity and injecting fear into society for something very few need to fear. 

Yeah for you until an outbreak happens in your county. It is a matter of time before it happens. Unlike the UP your county actually has people, just like Ingham County and that bar is now the source of nearly 100 cases in a week. 

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8 hours ago, nwohweather said:


Unabridged capitalism always works. It’s why we have an economy worth $21.5 Trillion, 25% of the entire world’s economy with 5% of its population. There’s really no safety net for small businesses as you have to have outputs, and that’s what is going wrong here. I know this is a left leaning forum but I can’t deny the education I’ve gotten since earning a business degree in college, it’s staggering to see the raw efficiency in our country as opposed to Europe.

But living in wide open Charleston I’m gonna tell you by and large no one cares about this pandemic. Just tons of vacationers are flocking these states, crowding places and taking a vacation from wearing a mask. I’m interested to see if a national law would work, it’d help us out down here a lot.

When saying that unabridged capitalism always works...who does it work for? It works for people who are more educated, have better skills, and build up money early in their lives to then take advantage of compound interest. I happen to be one of those people, and I suppose I should be thankful in some way...but does it work for the environment? No. Does it work for people with fewer skills and lower education? No. Capitalism with careful, consistent, and very strong environmental regulation with a big safety net is the happy medium, as it balances the preservation of freedom, protecting nature, and stops people from competing with each other. Unabridged capitalism is one reason we have such a toxic political culture and toxic social media, and horribly inequitable health care outcomes.

 

People’s value should not be tied to their economic value. 
 

What is the societal and cultural benefit of a high GDP? Everyone assumes this is the ultimate goal...but why? I would trade a huge portion of the country’s GDP for a bit more of the “good” things that I listed above, spread across everyone. We have to stop fighting and competing with each other. Unabridged capitalism encourages this fighting, and it just isn’t good. Maybe it was good in the industrial revolution, but now other countries want to industrialize like the US did...but the global environment can’t handle it. I am not talking about climate change specifically; I am talking about air pollution, ocean pollution and the great Pacific Ocean garbage patch, plastics, habitat destruction, etc. These are the serious conversations that world leaders need to have...instead of encouraging policies which grow the economy at all costs. In order to strike the right balance, personal freedoms need to be restricted somewhat. Of course people don’t like that...and I understand that...but we have to concede that my and your individual best interest doesn’t always align with the earth’s best interest. Why are we so afraid to have this conversation at a national and global level??

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30 minutes ago, beavis1729 said:

When saying that unabridged capitalism always works...who does it work for? It works for people who are more educated, have better skills, and build up money early in their lives to then take advantage of compound interest. I happen to be one of those people, and I suppose I should be thankful in some way...but does it work for the environment? No. Does it work for people with fewer skills and lower education? No. Capitalism with careful, consistent, and very strong environmental regulation with a big safety net is the happy medium, as it balances the preservation of freedom, protecting nature, and stops people from competing with each other. Unabridged capitalism is one reason we have such a toxic political culture and toxic social media, and horribly inequitable health care outcomes.

 

People’s value should not be tied to their economic value. 
 

What is the societal and cultural benefit of a high GDP? Everyone assumes this is the ultimate goal...but why? I would trade a huge portion of the country’s GDP for a bit more of the “good” things that I listed above, spread across everyone. We have to stop fighting and competing with each other. Unabridged capitalism encourages this fighting, and it just isn’t good. Maybe it was good in the industrial revolution, but now other countries want to industrialize like the US did...but the global environment can’t handle it. I am not talking about climate change specifically; I am talking about air pollution, ocean pollution and the great Pacific Ocean garbage patch, plastics, habitat destruction, etc. These are the serious conversations that world leaders need to have...instead of encouraging policies which grow the economy at all costs. In order to strike the right balance, personal freedoms need to be restricted somewhat. Of course people don’t like that...and I understand that...but we have to concede that my and your individual best interest doesn’t always align with the earth’s best interest. Why are we so afraid to have this conversation at a national and global level??

We are afraid to have that conversation because sadly many people are selfish and lack common sense. Money and power means so much more to many than things like the environment, pollution, habitat destruction / overdevelopment, etc. Look at how lazy so many people are to recycling. Asking people to recycle is like asking them to give up a kidney. And then the recycling market is driven by profits, just like everything else.

Sure, we all need money to survive in today’s world, but just how much do we really need? If people would stop living above their means; stop having kids they can’t afford; simply use common sense in their lives, the world would be so much better off. It really is that simple. But people want it all, no matter the cost.

This is great: https://portal.clubrunner.ca/5453/stories/an-obituary-printed-in-the-london-times

 

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When saying that unabridged capitalism always works...who does it work for? It works for people who are more educated, have better skills, and build up money early in their lives to then take advantage of compound interest. I happen to be one of those people, and I suppose I should be thankful in some way...but does it work for the environment? No. Does it work for people with fewer skills and lower education? No. Capitalism with careful, consistent, and very strong environmental regulation with a big safety net is the happy medium, as it balances the preservation of freedom, protecting nature, and stops people from competing with each other. Unabridged capitalism is one reason we have such a toxic political culture and toxic social media, and horribly inequitable health care outcomes.

 

People’s value should not be tied to their economic value. 

 

What is the societal and cultural benefit of a high GDP? Everyone assumes this is the ultimate goal...but why? I would trade a huge portion of the country’s GDP for a bit more of the “good” things that I listed above, spread across everyone. We have to stop fighting and competing with each other. Unabridged capitalism encourages this fighting, and it just isn’t good. Maybe it was good in the industrial revolution, but now other countries want to industrialize like the US did...but the global environment can’t handle it. I am not talking about climate change specifically; I am talking about air pollution, ocean pollution and the great Pacific Ocean garbage patch, plastics, habitat destruction, etc. These are the serious conversations that world leaders need to have...instead of encouraging policies which grow the economy at all costs. In order to strike the right balance, personal freedoms need to be restricted somewhat. Of course people don’t like that...and I understand that...but we have to concede that my and your individual best interest doesn’t always align with the earth’s best interest. Why are we so afraid to have this conversation at a national and global level??

Well this is the Democrat vs Republican debate lol. To each their own but that’s what the voting booth is for

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4 hours ago, Stebo said:

All this bleating about the economy is pointless. The argument is about wearing a mask, if you want to bring the economy up and why stuff is remaining closed, it is because people refuse to wear masks causing us not to relax the curve. It is really simple, wear a damn mask.

This was the entire point of my so-called "baiting". Thank you for explicitly stating it.

Wear a mask. Normalize it until this is over.

edit to add that opening the entire economy up now is obviously ill-advised after the recent surge in cases. 

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2 hours ago, Jonger said:

This has little to do with the masks for me. This about limiting business activity and injecting fear into society for something very few need to fear. 

So the Republican governors of Florida and Texas closed all their bars for something that very few need to fear? 

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Ontario has 14.5M people and were now down under 200 a day with 30K a day testing and death rate dropping as well. Looking at States with similar population and the numbers are massive. 

The historical partnership and historical linkages of how our two countries grew is interesting and were seeing it play it out in trust of government and perceived freedoms. 

Sault St Marie Ontario and surrounding towns- The government has asked us to shut down and slow the spread so lets close and do our part. The government has asked us to wear masks and we should listen. I was in a Tim Hortons in Northern Ontario recently and they werent messing around with the 5 people in a store at a time. They asked us to wait outside and we did, when we were in and more people came in they asked again and without fighting it they waited outside. 

Sault St Marie Michigan and surrounding Northern MI- Nope shutdown is dumb, wearing a mask is dumb, the government is trying to crush my small business and if I want to open I will. 

 

Not my business though on how you guys want to fight covid on your side of the border. Its just interesting to see an imaginary line we drew in the sand and the corresponding outlooks on society that follow. 

 

Edit**** Ontario has also really dropped the ball regarding LTC and the investigations and possible criminal charges coming against some will be interesting. So we are not perfect, far from it. 

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3 hours ago, Jonger said:

This has little to do with the masks for me. This about limiting business activity and injecting fear into society for something very few need to fear. 

I caught it back in March when I still lived in NYC, most likely from community spread. At the time, it was unclear what was going on because we weren't aware of all the symptoms people were experiencing. Never had a fever or cough. I was fortunate to not have it as bad as some, but I was still sick for almost three weeks. The most alarming symptom for me was having zero sense of smell. My boyfriend did not fare as well, but he made it out ok, too.

I'm still wearing a mask when in public since we don't actually know how long immunity lasts, or if everyone even becomes immune.  It feels important to normalize wearing masks in public because that is literally our best bet to get past this. It's unwise to assume you won't catch it in your small towns (which by the way are adjacent to busy interstates with restaurants and gas stations you may use, no?), especially with folks traveling more now. 

The only thing I fear personally is further economic collapse caused by the entirely preventable spread of this virus. I suspect we should remain concerned about our shitty healthcare system becoming overwhelmed, too.

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This was the entire point of my so-called "baiting". Thank you for explicitly stating it.
Wear a mask. Normalize it until this is over.
edit to add that opening the entire economy up now is obviously ill-advised after the recent surge in cases. 

This is what you don’t understand though. None of you are wrong about wearing the mask. The issue is the lockdowns were the equivalent of us all being grounded. What it has led to is people just not giving a bleep anymore.

The lockdowns were so severe and changed our lives so deeply that it fatigued people. That’s where all these governors failed, they got too strict and now people are just over it.

By and large Americans HATE micromanagement more than any population on Earth. That’s why no one is reacting to this right and we’ve got Karen’s flipping out at Kroger because they can’t enter without a mask

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2 minutes ago, nwohweather said:


This is what you don’t understand though. None of you are wrong about wearing the mask. The issue is the lockdowns were the equivalent of us all being grounded. What it has led to is people just not giving a bleep anymore.

The lockdowns were so severe and changed our lives so deeply that it fatigued people. That’s where all these governors failed, they got too strict and now people are just over it.

By and large Americans HATE micromanagement more than any population on Earth. That’s why no one is reacting to this right and we’ve got Karen’s flipping out at Kroger because they can’t enter without a mask

oh i definitely understand, but what can i say? freedom isn't free. 

all of what you describe is more a disruption to capitalism than anything else. it's what we have to figure out how to deal with now.

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oh i definitely understand, but what can i say? freedom isn't free. 
all of what you describe is more a disruption to capitalism than anything else. it's what we have to figure out how to deal with now.

Idk even know if it’s economic entirely, lol it’s more like people are sick of sitting around. Restaurants have been absolutely packed lately around here

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Just checked and our bars in Indiana can operate at full capacity starting July 4.  Hopefully we get through it better than the other states. 

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6 hours ago, nwohweather said:

Well this is the Democrat vs Republican debate lol. To each their own but that’s what the voting booth is for

But it shouldn’t be political, and it shouldn’t need to be voted on. It should be a position that 98%+ of people align on. How could someone be against policies which benefit the environment and the greater good/community, and stops people from fighting one another? These should be obvious “table stakes” policies that every government adopts, with only the exact details in question. 
 

I really am not intending to be argumentative, or to make anything personal. I just don’t understand why people don’t focus on the greater good. Ironically, this approach probably benefits individuals too, more often than not. The current state of affairs in our country, both politically and socially, is cripplingly unhealthy. It’s very sad and must be improved.
 

I guess I’m naive...

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6 hours ago, mississaugasnow said:

Ontario has 14.5M people and were now down under 200 a day with 30K a day testing and death rate dropping as well. Looking at States with similar population and the numbers are massive. 

The historical partnership and historical linkages of how our two countries grew is interesting and were seeing it play it out in trust of government and perceived freedoms. 

Sault St Marie Ontario and surrounding towns- The government has asked us to shut down and slow the spread so lets close and do our part. The government has asked us to wear masks and we should listen. I was in a Tim Hortons in Northern Ontario recently and they werent messing around with the 5 people in a store at a time. They asked us to wait outside and we did, when we were in and more people came in they asked again and without fighting it they waited outside. 

Sault St Marie Michigan and surrounding Northern MI- Nope shutdown is dumb, wearing a mask is dumb, the government is trying to crush my small business and if I want to open I will. 

 

Not my business though on how you guys want to fight covid on your side of the border. Its just interesting to see an imaginary line we drew in the sand and the corresponding outlooks on society that follow. 

 

Edit**** Ontario has also really dropped the ball regarding LTC and the investigations and possible criminal charges coming against some will be interesting. So we are not perfect, far from it. 

We were on lockdown for 2 months. I never even got laid off cos the federal government paid my workplaces wages so my employer didnt have to lose any staff. That was the Canadian emergency wage subsidy.

We still cant assemble in groups larger than 10 people. All businesses have to limit how many people can enter the store at the time so we have to form lines on marked spacing 6 feet apart to get into stores, including inside malls that were just allowed to reopen.

Theatres and recreation are still closed. Only restaurant patios are open with massive restrictions. And singing and dancing are illegal.

And more counties are making masks mandatory.

We've worked hard to keep our numbers down and aside from a couple dumb protests everyone is complying.

I'm hoping all the emergency aid for wages, unemployment, and business grants will keep us afloat. Could all come down at a moments notice tho.

Its night and day for us looking south of the border. 

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1 hour ago, beavis1729 said:

But it shouldn’t be political, and it shouldn’t need to be voted on. It should be a position that 98%+ of people align on. How could someone be against policies which benefit the environment and the greater good/community, and stops people from fighting one another? These should be obvious “table stakes” policies that every government adopts, with only the exact details in question. 
 

I really am not intending to be argumentative, or to make anything personal. I just don’t understand why people don’t focus on the greater good. Ironically, this approach probably benefits individuals too, more often than not. The current state of affairs in our country, both politically and socially, is cripplingly unhealthy. It’s very sad and must be improved.
 

I guess I’m naive...

It shouldn't be made political but when the president absolutely refuses to wear one or even acknowledge the existence of masks. It becomes political because far too many in this country take their cues from him lately.

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All of this talk about politics and economy. Here is the real bottom line: People

Wear your mask

I'll just leave these right here.

Source: Johns Hopkins University

Coronavirus.png

Deaths per Capita.png

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