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Baroclinic Zone

December 9, 2017 - Storm Discussion (Breaking the seal on the season for many)

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The euro has a little more concentrated vort. So that may help. The problem is the s/w right behind it. That won't allow the first s/w to really curl up and buckle the flow like it could have. So, I'm not really sure how much more west it could go. Although...since the QPF shield is so abrupt...even 30 miles could mean flurries or 1-2". 

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2 minutes ago, CoastalWx said:

The euro has a little more concentrated vort. So that may help. The problem is the s/w right behind it. That won't allow the first s/w to really curl up and buckle the flow like it could have. So, I'm not really sure how much more west it could go. Although...since the QPF shield is so abrupt...even 30 miles could mean flurries or 1-2". 

Great

The kicker

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Because most models unlike the GFS don't handle the progressive flow that well, an example the EURO, while it is better with southern stream interactions, it is not good with northern stream interactions with the arctic jet.  The GFS has a progressive bias, but that does not happen within a fast la nina induced northern stream.  So I think the models could actually lean towards a more neutral solution with the kicker disturbance either kicking it faster through the flow, or actually phase partially with the northern stream and arctic streams.  We are less than 84 hours away from the first flakes or drops

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11 minutes ago, STILL N OF PIKE said:

Great

The kicker

Well that is the one that could have made Sunday a little more interesting. At this stage, I think we hope to have the lead s/w sharper and help curl the moisture field back west a bit. I'm always a little more cautious when you have GOM moisture with a sharp s/w. That's a recipe for west if the flow allows for it.  

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Just now, CoastalWx said:

Well that is the one that could have made Sunday a little more interesting. At this stage, I think we hope to have the lead s/w sharper and help curl the moisture field back west a bit. I'm always a little more cautious when you have GOM moisture with a sharp s/w. That's a recipe for west if the flow allows for it.  

Could the models be mishandling the second shortwave and that actually be allowed to phase with the Pacific disturbance?

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5 minutes ago, USCAPEWEATHERAF said:

Could the models be mishandling the second shortwave and that actually be allowed to phase with the Pacific disturbance?

I assume you mean the s/w that sort of rides through the southwest and then traverses the GOM?

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18 minutes ago, USCAPEWEATHERAF said:

Because most models unlike the GFS don't handle the progressive flow that well, an example the EURO, while it is better with southern stream interactions, it is not good with northern stream interactions with the arctic jet.  The GFS has a progressive bias, but that does not happen within a fast la nina induced northern stream.  So I think the models could actually lean towards a more neutral solution with the kicker disturbance either kicking it faster through the flow, or actually phase partially with the northern stream and arctic streams.  We are less than 84 hours away from the first flakes or drops

My understanding was a progressive flow is the GFS best pattern.  It tends to fail in big east coast storm patterns.

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17 minutes ago, USCAPEWEATHERAF said:

Yes

It's possible the energy may be buried too far southwest. That can happen, and will cause that lead s/w to be stretched a bit and not buckle the flow. But, you can't always look at a model and try to force yourself to find a reason why it's wrong. That's what weenies do. You look at trends, biases..ensembles etc and make a call. 

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29 minutes ago, USCAPEWEATHERAF said:

Right that is what I was trng to figure out, what needs to change.  for a big storm, not that I'm saying it's not possible just what needs to correct

Just dont mention A greenland block Could help, Thus u be strikith  down and asked If  u dont u recall transient blocking Lol   

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38 minutes ago, weathafella said:

My understanding was a progressive flow is the GFS best pattern.  It tends to fail in big east coast storm patterns.

It performs better but I'm still not sold on any solution with such a large PNA ridge and data sparse areas of canada not sampling as good.  The kicker behind this lead system will mean the difference between nothing and upside of modest snows.

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6 minutes ago, Baroclinic Zone said:

It performs better but I'm still nocould on any solution with such a large PNA ridge and data sparse areas of canada not sampling as good.  The kicker behind this lead system will mean the difference between nothing and upside of modest snows.

Besides hoping the kicker slows down in this fast flow , i mean how Is this achieved.

If  The sampling is poor?

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49 minutes ago, STILL N OF PIKE said:

Besides hoping the kicker slows down in this fast flow , i mean how Is this achieved.

If  The sampling is poor?

If the upstream ridge is pumped up higher it may allow the downstream kicker to slow.  Also if the ridging is sharper it may allow the kicker to be further w than currently modeled.  If you loop the N American 500mb images on TT you can see you the ridge out west gets beat down and it also shifts E as  we get closer to the weekend.

https://www.tropicaltidbits.com/analysis/models/?model=gfs&region=namer&pkg=z500_vort&runtime=2017120606&fh=0

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