Fall+Banter

[Ginx snewx]

1 hour ago, RUNNAWAYICEBERG said:

Got any data out this way?

have you put your numbers in the Snow total thread since 10/11?

[HoarfrostHubb]

1 hour ago, Ginx snewx said:

My average is 67

How many years is that over?

 

[Ginx snewx]

2 hours ago, HoarfrostHubb said:

How many years is that over?

 

on our snow thread since 2010, long term is around 55

[powderfreak]

4 hours ago, Ginx snewx said:

10/11

That's gotta be low.  I'll find the NWS seasonal map but 10-11 was over 150" at the Lower Village cocorahs on RT100 (VT-LM-1)...that was the year JSpin had 200", Underhill 220", Hyde Park 180", etc.. The Lower Village Cocorahs guy is usually one of the lowest around and he had 150.5" or something.

That was a nice solid above normal winter given best I can tell average might be 115-125" (thought More like 130" but these last few winters have brought down that expectation).

[Ginx snewx]

1 hour ago, powderfreak said:

That's gotta be low.  I'll find the NWS seasonal map but 10-11 was over 150" at the Lower Village cocorahs on RT100 (VT-LM-1)...that was the year JSpin had 200", Underhill 220", Hyde Park 180", etc.. The Lower Village Cocorahs guy is usually one of the lowest around and he had 150.5" or something.

That was a nice solid above normal winter given best I can tell average might be 115-125" (thought More like 130" but these last few winters have brought down that expectation).

J.Spin	Waterbury	VT	197.00
	Allenson	Corinth	VT	110.70
	j24vt	Stowe	VT	109.00

97" inch ave since 2010 at Stowe Cocorahs

http://cloud.cocorahs.org/wys/2010-2011/VT/VT-LM-1-wys-2010-2011.html

cocorahs 150 inches

http://cloud.cocorahs.org/wys/StationWysCharts.html?station=VT-LM-1&wateryear=2011

[powderfreak]

37 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

J.Spin	Waterbury	VT	197.00
	Allenson	Corinth	VT	110.70
	j24vt	Stowe	VT	109.00

97" inch ave since 2010 at Stowe Cocorahs

http://cloud.cocorahs.org/wys/2010-2011/VT/VT-LM-1-wys-2010-2011.html

cocorahs 150 inches

http://cloud.cocorahs.org/wys/StationWysCharts.html?station=VT-LM-1&wateryear=2011

Yeah I wonder if he's missing data.  He lives just south of where the "L" is in Lamoille.

This map is fascinating to me as the seasonal snowfall lines up like one giant NW upslope flow event.  There's a 100" inch gradient in Washington County between J.Spin and south of Montpelier...and then again between Sugarbush area and SE Washington County. 

Wonder how many times in New England there's been a winter seasonal snowfall gradient of 100" within the same county with no difference in elevation (in fact, the lower totals in SE Washington County are much higher in elevation than up near Waterbury area.

[dendrite]

How does jspin compare to the rest of Waterbury? Is there a lot of variation within town? I've noticed his depths never get insanely deep considering the new snowfall, but he always seems to have pristine measuring samples to use off of his elevated board. I assume his sheltered spot reduces the upslope associated wind and maximizes his ratios? Can he actually get blow off from the high terrain to his west? I forget exactly how his topography looked. All I can recall is that he's nestled into a deep crevasse.

[HoarfrostHubb]

Raising a toast to Rocktober 2011

5 years ago

 

[dendrite]

My fave storm ever. Almost 20" here.

[backedgeapproaching]

39 minutes ago, dendrite said:

How does jspin compare to the rest of Waterbury? Is there a lot of variation within town? I've noticed his depths never get insanely deep considering the new snowfall, but he always seems to have pristine measuring samples to use off of his elevated board. I assume his sheltered spot reduces the upslope associated wind and maximizes his ratios? Can he actually get blow off from the high terrain to his west? I forget exactly how his topography looked. All I can recall is that he's nestled into a deep crevasse.

There is a cocorahs guy in Waterbury 3.3 NE that seems to have pretty detailed and accurate reports.  He is at 1K vs Jspins 500ft and also different location--3 miles NE of Waterbury vs Jspin 3 miles NW in that steep valley off 89(I think). Couple closer years and few with larger gaps like 14-15 which really sticks out. Freak or JSpin could expand further on the subject obviously.

2010-11

JSpin-197"

Other guy- 158"

2011-12

Jspin-98"

other guy-77"

2013-14

Jspin-142"

other guy-133"

2014-15

jspin-144"

other guy-84"

2015-16

Jspin-72"

other guy-45"

[dendrite]

Thanks for that. I think the cocorahs guys are measuring every 24hrs too?

[Ginx snewx]

17 minutes ago, dendrite said:

Thanks for that. I think the cocorahs guys are measuring every 24hrs too?

Nope Snowfall is the maximum accumulation of fresh snow during the past day prior to melting or settling

[dendrite]

11 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

Nope Snowfall is the maximum accumulation of fresh snow during the past day prior to melting or settling

Where do you not get 24hrs out of that?

[dendrite]

I'll add that I think NWS and cocorahs encourage 24hr snow measurements like the COOPs. Cocorahs says to report the greatest total new during the previous 24hrs, but they don't follow the measure and clear every 6hrs method. Those obs will still experience a lot of compaction compared to the 6 hourlies. I'm pretty sure jspin is fairly consistent with his more frequent measurements and clearings.

[CoastalWx]

Why would the NWS go against what the first order stations attempt to do? Do they not clear every 6hrs?

[ORH_wxman]

They went back to encouraging 1 measurement to line up better with historical coop data. The change was pretty recent if I recall. They still want every 6 hours if possible at first order stations. 

Down where we are it typically won't matter a ton but if you are in an area that gets a ton of upslope and high ratio snow then it will definitely make a noticeable difference over time. 

[J.Spin]

2 hours ago, dendrite said:

How does jspin compare to the rest of Waterbury? Is there a lot of variation within town? I've noticed his depths never get insanely deep considering the new snowfall, but he always seems to have pristine measuring samples to use off of his elevated board. I assume his sheltered spot reduces the upslope associated wind and maximizes his ratios? Can he actually get blow off from the high terrain to his west? I forget exactly how his topography looked. All I can recall is that he's nestled into a deep crevasse.

 

Yeah, our location does get more total liquid than spots to the east and west due to the proximity to the spine and resulting upslope effect, but the overall snowfall numbers are enhanced even further by the factors you note above.  We’re essentially at the high point of the pass in the Winooski Valley as it cuts through the wall of the Greens, yet well sheltered from any winds.  The upslope flakes with incredible dendritic structure essentially waft their way gently down into our area and stack up with ridiculous loft. Since we’re so well protected down here, the flakes just sit there until the depth is measured and they’re cleared.  I added the map below that I made for previous discussions on the topic.  My location is around where the "y" is in Winooski Valley, and you can see the center of Waterbury roughly 2 to 3 miles behind that point.

 

 

 

[Ginx snewx]

1 hour ago, dendrite said:

Where do you not get 24hrs out of that?

Because you have to measure max depth before settling and melt. seems pretty self explanatory 

[Ginx snewx]

1 hour ago, dendrite said:

I'll add that I think NWS and cocorahs encourage 24hr snow measurements like the COOPs. Cocorahs says to report the greatest total new during the previous 24hrs, but they don't follow the measure and clear every 6hrs method. Those obs will still experience a lot of compaction compared to the 6 hourlies. I'm pretty sure jspin is fairly consistent with his more frequent measurements and clearings.

I see little if any difference and I do it both ways , just tenths really 

[J.Spin]

38 minutes ago, dendrite said:

I'll add that I think NWS and cocorahs encourage 24hr snow measurements like the COOPs. Cocorahs says to report the greatest total new during the previous 24hrs, but they don't follow the measure and clear every 6hrs method. Those obs will still experience a lot of compaction compared to the 6 hourlies. I'm pretty sure jspin is fairly consistent with his more frequent measurements and clearings.

 

Yes, I definitely clear more frequently than 24 hours.  With work, skiing, etc. it’s most commonly in 12-hour intervals (6 AM and 6 PM), but I get in plenty of 6-hour intervals as well if I’m around to do them.  I guess there are merits to both the 6-hour of 24-hour collection interval ideas, and it makes more a difference the drier the snow is.  There’s no doubt that the shorter intervals give one more data to use with respect to documenting and understanding an area’s snowfall climatology.  Around here with the “snow globe” type of environment, I think the shorter intervals present a better story of what’s going on and what actually falls, vs. reporting a settled total each morning.  But, the collection interval timing is really an arbitrary, human-derived thing and will probably always be a topic for debate.  Whatever the case with respect to settling of snowfall, reporting the liquid in the snow is the most important in my opinion, and that can always be used as the ultimate equalizer if one wants to remove snow ratios and loft from the equation.

[dendrite]

Just now, Ginx snewx said:

Because you have to measure max depth before settling and melt. seems pretty self explanatory 

They're still only clearing the board once per day. In a 12-24hr event they're going to get extra compaction even though the accumulation continues. It's not equivalent to 4, 6-hourly measurements, clearing, and summing the totals.

[dendrite]

1 minute ago, Ginx snewx said:

I see little if any difference and I do it both ways , just tenths really 

I've done it both ways and have had inches difference. In one of BUF's big LES events they had like 80 something inches yet the depth never got above like 45". Super dendritic fluff can excessively compact in 24hrs versus 6hrs.

[Ginx snewx]

2 minutes ago, dendrite said:

They're still only clearing the board once per day. In a 12-24hr event they're going to get extra compaction even though the accumulation continues. It's not equivalent to 4, 6-hourly measurements, clearing, and summing the totals.

The difference is minimal as long as you know the process . my data is very consistent with PNS all around me

 

[backedgeapproaching]

Ray(famartin) summarizing why they are trying to eliminate the 6 hour clears.  Basically there are so many crappy snowfall reporters that  the diligent ones are making the crappy ones look bad 

 

      On ‎12‎/‎2‎/‎2013 at 9:51 PM, famartin said:

It would seem that way.  The goals communicated to me by those who made this change essentially consisted of "forcibly" lowering COOP snowfall totals, since many COOPs are poor snowfall reporters in the first place; these guidelines would bring the better reporters down towards the poor reporters, making everyone closer together overall.  I am paraphrasing, but it was pretty clear based on what was said.

 

I like this one too :

      On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2013 at 6:32 PM, famartin said:

Under the new rules, if you get 2", it melts, and then 2" more falls within the 24-hour time period, it now only counts as 2".  You don't add these like you would have in the past.

 

Pretty detailed disco in here:

 

[ORH_wxman]

19 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

The difference is minimal as long as you know the process . my data is very consistent with PNS all around me

 

In most of our storms in SNE, the difference will be fairly low...but he's absolutely correct that you'd see much larger differences in larger events and probably even some medium-large events that have high ratios. It's physically impossible not to have big differences if it's like 25 to 1 fluff over 12+ hours.

[CoastalWx]

1 hour ago, backedgeapproaching said:

Ray(famartin) summarizing why they are trying to eliminate the 6 hour clears.  Basically there are so many crappy snowfall reporters that  the diligent ones are making the crappy ones look bad 

 

      On ‎12‎/‎2‎/‎2013 at 9:51 PM, famartin said:

It would seem that way.  The goals communicated to me by those who made this change essentially consisted of "forcibly" lowering COOP snowfall totals, since many COOPs are poor snowfall reporters in the first place; these guidelines would bring the better reporters down towards the poor reporters, making everyone closer together overall.  I am paraphrasing, but it was pretty clear based on what was said.

 

I like this one too :

      On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2013 at 6:32 PM, famartin said:

Under the new rules, if you get 2", it melts, and then 2" more falls within the 24-hour time period, it now only counts as 2".  You don't add these like you would have in the past.

 

Pretty detailed disco in here:

 

Yeah I remember that.  Classic. 

[Ginx snewx]

56 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

In most of our storms in SNE, the difference will be fairly low...but he's absolutely correct that you'd see much larger differences in larger events and probably even some medium-large events that have high ratios. It's physically impossible not to have big differences if it's like 25 to 1 fluff over 12+ hours.

Cocorahs guidelines to clear up the confusion 

One of the difficulties with accurate and consistent snowfall measurement is related to the melting, settling, or evaporation of snow before you have a chance to measure it (especially in the Fall and Spring). Please try to do a measurement as close in time to when the storm ends as possible. Don't wait until 7AM if the snow ended the previous day. During long-duration snowfalls, you may choose to measure and clear the snowboard every six hours. The total snowfall would then be the summation of the different measurements.

 

In very big snowfalls (20" or more), you may find yourself averaging several readings around your yard and estimating depth

[tamarack]

13 hours ago, powderfreak said:

 

Wonder how many times in New England there's been a winter seasonal snowfall gradient of 100" within the same county with no difference in elevation (in fact, the lower totals in SE Washington County are much higher in elevation than up near Waterbury area.

I'll guess that Oxford County in Maine might have such differences, though Parmachenee is probably 1000' higher than Porter.

And it sounds like I'm not measuring the snow the "new" cocorahs way, as I do two (at least) daily measurements, because I continue my 9 PM obs that I've done since 1976.

[backedgeapproaching]

8 hours ago, Ginx snewx said:

Cocorahs guidelines to clear up the confusion 

One of the difficulties with accurate and consistent snowfall measurement is related to the melting, settling, or evaporation of snow before you have a chance to measure it (especially in the Fall and Spring). Please try to do a measurement as close in time to when the storm ends as possible. Don't wait until 7AM if the snow ended the previous day. During long-duration snowfalls, you may choose to measure and clear the snowboard every six hours. The total snowfall would then be the summation of the different measurements.

 

In very big snowfalls (20" or more), you may find yourself averaging several readings around your yard and estimating depth

Thanks Ginx, I knew I read that somewhere when i signed up, it's just not in the actual training slideshows.

[moneypitmike]

I'm not finding any of my October 2011 snow pics..  I guess they got tossed when I changed phones over the years.  I know I posted some to eastern, but that's gone now, too.

 

Alas.