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wxeyeNH

NNE Cold Season Thread 2020-2021

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1 hour ago, LaGrangewx said:

I’m not very familiar with your area but I have looked in the past at a bunch of the data on xmacis. There used to be another reporter down the road from your area a few years back. They were located around the Bowman inn and Jefferson notch snowmobile rentals area I believe. I think that area was discussed in here before and people thought it would be very snowy as the mountains converge around there. Elevation there is still around 1500-1600 and it seems to be the crest of rt-2. Anyways the data was a bit spotty and definitely not as good as the reporter in your neighborhood but they seemed to always measure For the bigger storms. I noticed a trend that, that location always reported more backside snow during the storms than your reporter did. Maybe they do a bit better a few miles west there with upslope snow than you but the retention at your spot is better I bet. 
One example of an upslope storm was January 2010. I believe Burlington area got a lot with that also. The 4.0wsw Randolph reporter had over 30” with almost 40 on the ground, and the one 1.4ne had around 20” with about 30 on the ground. 

Hmm, interesting data point. There was a storm earlier in the season (the October snow I think) where the west part of the town did quite a bit better than here. It's definitely noticeable if you are dealing with a cold front pushing west with the precip. I don't seem to do too well in those setups as the precip seems to race through but the cold front gets hung up. I will say just anecdotally when I drive down towards Jefferson the upslope seems to slacken from here, but I haven't done any really scientific observations. I know Alex has also observed that Jefferson is a bit of a hole for upslope but this other observer is further east.

There are definitely some dud scenarios here but I feel like I have a really good combo of being able to do a little of everything here: synoptic, upslope, and retention. Fewer ways to get skunked than other places and the snow season is about as long as it can be in NNE.

My snow depth is still near the top of the rankings across the area (outside the ski peaks) even though there hasn't been a storm over 2" since Feb 2.

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21 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

Hmm, interesting data point. There was a storm earlier in the season (the October snow I think) where the west part of the town did quite a bit better than here. It's definitely noticeable if you are dealing with a cold front pushing west with the precip. I don't seem to do too well in those setups as the precip seems to race through but the cold front gets hung up. I will say just anecdotally when I drive down towards Jefferson the upslope seems to slacken from here, but I haven't done any really scientific observations. I know Alex has also observed that Jefferson is a bit of a hole for upslope but this other observer is further east.

There are definitely some dud scenarios here but I feel like I have a really good combo of being able to do a little of everything here: synoptic, upslope, and retention. Fewer ways to get skunked than other places and the snow season is about as long as it can be in NNE.

My snow depth is still near the top of the rankings across the area (outside the ski peaks) even though there hasn't been a storm over 2" since Feb 2.

Yea I was going to ask if you’d driven through there or observed much. It would be interesting to drive west during an upslope event and see if there is any noticeable differences. That observer only reported for Like 2 or 3 years and they were on the west side of Randolph still a ways from Jefferson. I know on the meso models like the 3km NAM and wrf they always paint a narrow strip of enhanced snow during west or northwest flow I believe from the presidentials that connects diagonally to the Pilot/piny range where Mt Cabot is. I wonder if that intersects rt 2 somewhere. I bet you’ve probably seen that depiction on the models it’s always there. The Models also always show the sharp cutoff to basically nothing a lot of the time as you continue west towards Jefferson and Whitefield which you mentioned are noticeable snow holes from observation. The white mountains are interesting to me because they’re not a spine like the greens where it’s pretty obvious where the upslope occurs. There has to be some real micro climate differences in your area.

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On 2/19/2021 at 8:06 PM, J.Spin said:

Yeah, it looks like a good stretch – I’m seeing four systems suggested in the near future on the GFS and other models:

 

1. The current backside snow of Winter Storm Viola, which the models suggest should run through about midday Sunday

2. Monday into Tuesday, there’s a low pressure system and surface cold front crossing the region

3. Tuesday night into Wednesday, a weak low pressure system passing north of the area

4. Thursday, another system potentially moving along the international border

 

Well, I think we’ve finished with the systems that were modeled to be in the queue from our conversation back on Friday, so we can now look back at how they played out.  That last one was six days out back when we were discussing this week, and it really came through just as the modeling suggested.  Here are the totals for each storm at our site:

1. 7.7”

2. 3.0”

3. 0.5”

4. 1.8”

Sum:  13.0”

 

I’m typically quite impressed with the way the models can dial in these northern steam systems so well.

 The GFS suggests that Mother Nature just keeps the systems rolling on in, with another four systems over the next several days:

1. Saturday night

2. Sunday night

3. Monday/Tuesday

4. Wednesday/Thursday

There’s definitely some variance among the models, with that last one being somewhat weak and to the north on the GFS, but the pattern certainly looks to stay active the way it’s been this week.

Bread&Butter4.jpg

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13 hours ago, PhineasC said:

Models all have about .5" liquid here as snow for Saturday.

Fingers crossed for my first snowfall over 2" since the beginning of Feb.

4-6" of snow would be perfect to rebuild things and set up March.

I was surprised at the 2” comment, and that’s definitely how it’s gone at your neighbor’s site, but those were certainly a couple of solid days at the beginning of the month with back-to-back reports of 6”+ for the morning CoCoRaHS submissions:

25FEB21A.jpg

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9 minutes ago, J.Spin said:

I was surprised at the 2” comment, and that’s definitely how it’s gone at your neighbor’s site, but those were definitely a couple of solid days at the beginning of the month with back-to-back reports of 6”+ for the morning CoCoRaHS submissions:

 

25FEB21A.jpg

Yep, that was the early Feb good synoptic event. Solid E flow setup.

It's been all refreshers since. Below average month, but great retention. Still about 30" out there. Been that same reading all month.

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3k NAM holding steady with a general 3-6" in C/NNH and NW ME. Skiing South Baldface Saturday and curious when the precip sets in? GYX seems to think mid morning while the models are showing an afternoon affair. Timing will likely determine whether I head up into the alpine or ski the glades. 

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4 hours ago, backedgeapproaching said:

After 3-4 months, it seems like it's not quite the upslope haven compared to say Alex and obviously northern greens western slopes. It certainly is a great synoptic system spot though. It seems the moose fart short waves dont quite produce over there the same as in NVT.  Im sure if a wound up LP moved into eastern Canada and slowed down it could hit that area hard with backside upslope, don't think we have really had one of those though this season. Like PF said, more like squally in nature as opposed to those radar shots PF posts of the precip slamming into a wall. Always good to refreshers though.

 

4 hours ago, PhineasC said:

I don’t get the 7-10 in a day or two upslope stuff that NVT can get. After the mid Jan storm I racked up over a foot of upslope after the storm passed, over the course of a week. So a good setup can produce. Usually I get 1-3” refreshers with good regularity. There are definitely several synoptic setups where Randolph can stack up to any place in NNE. My totals kept up with the Northern Greens ski peaks in the mid-Jan storm for example. Just one winter here but my read is that I am in the game for basically everything from any direction but due south. I get downsloped from that direction. I lag behind a little in upslope (although I am fairly similar in totals to Alex most times) but have an edge over NVT with many synoptic setups and possibly retention (at the 1500 and below level). Obviously the ski peaks at 3000+ are a different beast).

 

1 hour ago, PhineasC said:

There are definitely some dud scenarios here but I feel like I have a really good combo of being able to do a little of everything here: synoptic, upslope, and retention. Fewer ways to get skunked than other places and the snow season is about as long as it can be in NNE.

Phin, your site has been really interesting to watch thus far this winter to learn about the climate there.  It’s funny, because your neighbor has obviously been reporting detailed CoCoRaHS observations from that area for several years, so we certainly could have monitored things closely there if we’d wanted to get a feel for the climate, but there’s no replacement for having someone actively reporting and engaging in conversation here in the thread to really get the whole picture.

Your area clearly gets in on those daily NNE mountain snows.  As the table below shows, there’s been at least a trace of snow on 21 out of 25 days so far this month at your neighbor’s NH-CS-10 CoCoRaHS site.  That’s actually the same number of days with snow we’ve had here at our site (VT-WS-19), so it’s very comparable in that regard.

25FEB21B.jpg

You may be getting at something with the “Jack of all trades” line of thinking though.  And it’s not as if your site is even just average in those various categories – it’s basically well above average in everything.  But seeing this month’s data from your neighbor’s site, side by side with the data for the same period from our site (see table below), it’s obvious that something is different.  The month has basically felt about average here at our site with respect to snowfall, and the numbers speak to that, but the numbers for your neighbor’s site this month are probably a bit behind average pace for whatever reason.  I’m starting think that maybe your area is a bit more dependent on synoptic systems vs. the Northern Greens?  I wouldn’t have thought that based on the fact that you certainly seem to get in on the daily snows, but maybe your area really capitalizes more on those synoptic systems to get to those annual snowfall averages?  This month does seem like it’s been a bit lean on those larger synoptic systems, and maybe that’s the difference.

And I know at times it feels like you’re not getting a lot of snow, or seems like the snow is infrequent, but you have to remember some of the sites that people are reporting from in this thread.  You’re literally getting reports from PF on the eastern flanks of Mansfield, and now bwt from Jay Peak, and various other sites throughout the Northern Greens from people that live here or are visiting the local resorts.  You’re taking some serious big league annual snow totals for sites at elevation in the Northern Greens.  These sites almost certainly have the highest annual snowfall in the U.S. east of the Rockies (with sites like Mt. Washington, or at least its eastern flanks, potentially in contention as well), and arguably in all of eastern North America.  These sites blow away annual snowfall at the low-tier snowfall resorts in the Rockies like Sun Valley or Lake Louse, and can go head-to-head with the typical well-known mid-tier snowfall resorts out there (Vail, Aspen, etc.)  Those sites have the advantage of much better snow preservation, but you’ll notice that the annual snowfall is not all that different.

I know you’re not trying to directly compare the climate at your house to 3,000’ in the Northern Greens, but seeing these mountain sites with day after day of ridiculous snows that sometimes feel like they come out of nowhere, I imagine it can be a bit hard to keep perspective on just how much show you’re actually getting.

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5 minutes ago, J.Spin said:

 

 

Phin, your site has been really interesting to watch thus far this winter to learn about the climate there.  It’s funny, because your neighbor has obviously been reporting detailed CoCoRaHS observations from that area for several years, so we certainly could have monitored things closely there if we’d wanted to get a feel for the climate, but there’s no replacement for having someone actively reporting and engaging in conversation here in the thread to really get the whole picture.

 

Your area clearly gets in on those daily NNE mountain snows.  As the table below shows, there’s been at least a trace of snow on 21 out of 25 days so far this month at your neighbor’s NH-CS-10 CoCoRaHS site.  That’s actually the same number of days with snow we’ve had here at our site (VT-WS-19), so it’s very comparable in that regard.

 

25FEB21B.jpg

You may be getting at something with the “Jack of all trades” line of thinking though.  And it’s not as if your site is even just average in those various categories – it’s basically well above average in everything.  But seeing this month’s data from your neighbor’s site, side by side with the data for the same period from our site (see table below), it’s obvious that something is different.  The month has basically felt about average here at our site with respect to snowfall, and the numbers speak to that, but the numbers for your neighbor’s site this month are probably a bit behind average pace for whatever reason.  I’m starting think that maybe your area is a bit more dependent on synoptic systems vs. the Northern Greens?  I wouldn’t have thought that based on the fact that you certainly seem to get in on the daily snows, but maybe your area really capitalizes more on those synoptic systems to get to those annual snowfall averages?  This month does seem like it’s been a bit lean on those larger synoptic systems, and maybe that’s the difference.

 

And I know at times it feels like you’re not getting a lot of snow, or seems like the snow is infrequent, but you have to remember some of the sites that people are reporting from in this thread.  You’re literally getting reports from PF on the eastern flanks of Mansfield, and now bwt from Jay Peak, and various other sites throughout the Northern Greens from people that live here or are visiting the local resorts.  You’re taking some serious big league annual snow totals for sites at elevation in the Northern Greens.  These sites almost certainly have the highest annual snowfall in the U.S. east of the Rockies (with sites like Mt. Washington, or at least its eastern flanks, potentially in contention as well), and arguably in all of eastern North America.  These sites blow away annual snowfall at the low-tier snowfall resorts in the Rockies like Sun Valley or Lake Louse, and can go head-to-head with the typical well-known mid-tier snowfall resorts out there (Vail, Aspen, etc.)  Those sites have the advantage of much better snow preservation, but you’ll notice that the annual snowfall is not all that different.

 

I know you’re not trying to directly compare the climate at your house to 3,000’ in the Northern Greens, but seeing these mountain sites with day after day of ridiculous snows that sometimes feel like they come out of nowhere, I imagine it can be a bit hard to keep perspective on just how much show you’re actually getting.

 

Yep, we are on the same page! I am definitely still in learning mode here, but the overall picture for the climo here is starting to emerge for me. The mid Jan storm was interesting as I mentioned because I managed to keep pace even with those lofty ski peaks in that particular event. That was a great setup for my area.

I think my spot does a lot of things reasonably well without excelling in any one area (other than perhaps strong east flow events which have been lacking this winter and are fickle as you know).

Clearly, the big 240” winters in Randolph feature a lot of wound-up coastal lows throwing oceanic moisture in here on east winds. Basically my version of blocked upslope flow. I can squeeze every last flake of snow out of a big coastal it seems, even as Bretton Woods is being downsloped and Wildcat has turned to sleet and rain. That’s why I have been begging for a big low to pass over SE Mass into the GOM. :)  

As I noted in a prior post, I think my site “keeps up” with the Northern Greens in upslope in the sense that we tend to be snowing generally around the same times and for the same basic reasons. But you have the clear edge on sustained snowfall and accumulations from upslope. But I still enjoy plenty of 1-3” refreshers here! Just received one today!

Of course, weather is a very complex system and there will always be events that buck the averages. It will be neat to watch over the next few years as the averages shake out. 

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24 minutes ago, J.Spin said:

 

 

Phin, your site has been really interesting to watch thus far this winter to learn about the climate there.  It’s funny, because your neighbor has obviously been reporting detailed CoCoRaHS observations from that area for several years, so we certainly could have monitored things closely there if we’d wanted to get a feel for the climate, but there’s no replacement for having someone actively reporting and engaging in conversation here in the thread to really get the whole picture.

 

Your area clearly gets in on those daily NNE mountain snows.  As the table below shows, there’s been at least a trace of snow on 21 out of 25 days so far this month at your neighbor’s NH-CS-10 CoCoRaHS site.  That’s actually the same number of days with snow we’ve had here at our site (VT-WS-19), so it’s very comparable in that regard.

 

25FEB21B.jpg

You may be getting at something with the “Jack of all trades” line of thinking though.  And it’s not as if your site is even just average in those various categories – it’s basically well above average in everything.  But seeing this month’s data from your neighbor’s site, side by side with the data for the same period from our site (see table below), it’s obvious that something is different.  The month has basically felt about average here at our site with respect to snowfall, and the numbers speak to that, but the numbers for your neighbor’s site this month are probably a bit behind average pace for whatever reason.  I’m starting think that maybe your area is a bit more dependent on synoptic systems vs. the Northern Greens?  I wouldn’t have thought that based on the fact that you certainly seem to get in on the daily snows, but maybe your area really capitalizes more on those synoptic systems to get to those annual snowfall averages?  This month does seem like it’s been a bit lean on those larger synoptic systems, and maybe that’s the difference.

 

And I know at times it feels like you’re not getting a lot of snow, or seems like the snow is infrequent, but you have to remember some of the sites that people are reporting from in this thread.  You’re literally getting reports from PF on the eastern flanks of Mansfield, and now bwt from Jay Peak, and various other sites throughout the Northern Greens from people that live here or are visiting the local resorts.  You’re taking some serious big league annual snow totals for sites at elevation in the Northern Greens.  These sites almost certainly have the highest annual snowfall in the U.S. east of the Rockies (with sites like Mt. Washington, or at least its eastern flanks, potentially in contention as well), and arguably in all of eastern North America.  These sites blow away annual snowfall at the low-tier snowfall resorts in the Rockies like Sun Valley or Lake Louse, and can go head-to-head with the typical well-known mid-tier snowfall resorts out there (Vail, Aspen, etc.)  Those sites have the advantage of much better snow preservation, but you’ll notice that the annual snowfall is not all that different.

 

I know you’re not trying to directly compare the climate at your house to 3,000’ in the Northern Greens, but seeing these mountain sites with day after day of ridiculous snows that sometimes feel like they come out of nowhere, I imagine it can be a bit hard to keep perspective on just how much show you’re actually getting.

 

Another great snow spot east of the Rockies is Houghton, MI. 

Averages 202” which impressive for a low elevation spot (though it’s influenced by the lake). 

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33 minutes ago, J.Spin said:

And I know at times it feels like you’re not getting a lot of snow, or seems like the snow is infrequent, but you have to remember some of the sites that people are reporting from in this thread.  You’re literally getting reports from PF on the eastern flanks of Mansfield, and now bwt from Jay Peak, and various other sites throughout the Northern Greens from people that live here or are visiting the local resorts.  You’re taking some serious big league annual snow totals for sites at elevation in the Northern Greens.  These sites almost certainly have the highest annual snowfall in the U.S. east of the Rockies (with sites like Mt. Washington, or at least its eastern flanks, potentially in contention as well), and arguably in all of eastern North America.  These sites blow away annual snowfall at the low-tier snowfall resorts in the Rockies like Sun Valley or Lake Louse, and can go head-to-head with the typical well-known mid-tier snowfall resorts out there (Vail, Aspen, etc.)  Those sites have the advantage of much better snow preservation, but you’ll notice that the annual snowfall is not all that different.

 

Would love to get #s on the Chic Chocs. They're basically the same height as the Greens and rise up just to the east and south of the widest part of the St. Lawrence. Latitude helps too I bet. All of those ski edits can't be wrong!

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26 minutes ago, bch2014 said:

Another great snow spot east of the Rockies is Houghton, MI. 

Averages 202” which impressive for a low elevation spot (though it’s influenced by the lake). 

North Redfield averages pretty close to 300" a season. Snow belts south of here are also over 200". Also influenced by lots of lake effect.

image.thumb.png.ced15d65a042917311430ee4c611d2f4.png

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14 minutes ago, bch2014 said:

Another great snow spot east of the Rockies is Houghton, MI. 

Averages 202” which impressive for a low elevation spot (though it’s influenced by the lake). 

went to school out in the midwest and there are a few fairly active posters in the lake effect thread there. One is in Calumet/Larium area which is just north of houghton on the keweenaw but also on the spine of the peninsula at 1200'. They seem to average 250+". Their is also a woman on the Tug Hill in Redfield who has very accurate data and a long term average (25 years) of 290". She seems to be in the perfect spot latitudinally for lake effect but only around 1300'. A couple miles east gets to almost 2000' on the tug hill which I would guess has to average 300" or a bit more based on her data. The tug hill seems to get the ridiculous 5-10' lake effect events and probably the only spot for storms of that magnitude outside of the Western Mountains, but the Keweenaw has better snow preservation and depths with more frequent snows as well. Those 2 areas are no doubt the snowiest places under 3000' east of the rockies 

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6 minutes ago, LaGrangewx said:

went to school out in the midwest and there are a few fairly active posters in the lake effect thread there. One is in Calumet/Larium area which is just north of houghton on the keweenaw but also on the spine of the peninsula at 1200'. They seem to average 250+". Their is also a woman on the Tug Hill in Redfield who has very accurate data and a long term average (25 years) of 290". She seems to be in the perfect spot latitudinally for lake effect but only around 1300'. A couple miles east gets to almost 2000' on the tug hill which I would guess has to average 300" or a bit more based on her data. The tug hill seems to get the ridiculous 5-10' lake effect events and probably the only spot for storms of that magnitude outside of the Western Mountains, but the Keweenaw has better snow preservation and depths with more frequent snows as well. Those 2 areas are no doubt the snowiest places under 3000' east of the rockies 

There is also a 25+ year reporter whose name is also Carol in Perrysburg NY on the Chautuaqua ridgeline. She averages around 200-220" a year if you look at the Co Op Observer page. Lake Erie also gets those events, I received 88" of snow in 3 days in November of 2014. 65" in a 24 hour period. Just last week the Hills south of here got 46" of snow in a little over 24 hours off a 60% frozen lake, pretty crazy. I was actually on the weather channel for it. Micro-climates are fascinating.

https://weather.com/storms/winter/video/how-a-small-ice-free-path-in-lake-erie-buried-parts-of-ny-in-snow?fbclid=IwAR2KkqaIv86EC142MpC2Y5hrfLGkSrEEofc236twmH7F7YucJHBgEarjlHQ

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7 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

LOL fake snow. :)  

Upslope has less QPF in it then LES though. I saw a report on here last week of .19 QPF and 7.7" of snow that's incredible. LES is usually 1:15-1:25. It's been a terrible year for the tug hill, but they still have quite a bit up there.

Yl6UpOZ.jpg

 

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18 minutes ago, BuffaloWeather said:

Upslope has less QPF in it then LES though. I saw a report on here last week of .19 QPF and 7.7" of snow that's incredible. LES is usually 1:15-1:25. It's been a terrible year for the tug hill, but they still have quite a bit up there.

Yl6UpOZ.jpg

 

Yeah, I was just poking fun. I used to believe that “fake snow” stuff when I lived in MD but now I know the real story. 

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2 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

Yeah, I was just poking fun. I used to believe that “fake snow” stuff when I lived in MD but now I know the real story. 

You live in my favorite spot in the NE. I always look at your Nest cam and made me get one of my place too. It's so clear. As an avid hiker once I finish the Adirondack 46 those mountains behind your house are my next stop. My hiking buddy took some amazing video up there last year.

 

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8 hours ago, bch2014 said:

Another great snow spot east of the Rockies is Houghton, MI. 

Averages 202” which impressive for a low elevation spot (though it’s influenced by the lake). 

 

8 hours ago, MRVexpat said:

Would love to get #s on the Chic Chocs. They're basically the same height as the Greens and rise up just to the east and south of the widest part of the St. Lawrence. Latitude helps too I bet. All of those ski edits can't be wrong!

 

8 hours ago, BuffaloWeather said:

North Redfield averages pretty close to 300" a season. Snow belts south of here are also over 200". Also influenced by lots of lake effect.

 

8 hours ago, LaGrangewx said:

went to school out in the midwest and there are a few fairly active posters in the lake effect thread there. One is in Calumet/Larium area which is just north of houghton on the keweenaw but also on the spine of the peninsula at 1200'. They seem to average 250+". Their is also a woman on the Tug Hill in Redfield who has very accurate data and a long term average (25 years) of 290". She seems to be in the perfect spot latitudinally for lake effect but only around 1300'. A couple miles east gets to almost 2000' on the tug hill which I would guess has to average 300" or a bit more based on her data. The tug hill seems to get the ridiculous 5-10' lake effect events and probably the only spot for storms of that magnitude outside of the Western Mountains, but the Keweenaw has better snow preservation and depths with more frequent snows as well. Those 2 areas are no doubt the snowiest places under 3000' east of the rockies 

 

8 hours ago, BuffaloWeather said:

There is also a 25+ year reporter whose name is also Carol in Perrysburg NY on the Chautuaqua ridgeline. She averages around 200-220" a year if you look at the Co Op Observer page. Lake Erie also gets those events, I received 88" of snow in 3 days in November of 2014. 65" in a 24 hour period. Just last week the Hills south of here got 46" of snow in a little over 24 hours off a 60% frozen lake, pretty crazy. I was actually on the weather channel for it. Micro-climates are fascinating.

https://weather.com/storms/winter/video/how-a-small-ice-free-path-in-lake-erie-buried-parts-of-ny-in-snow?fbclid=IwAR2KkqaIv86EC142MpC2Y5hrfLGkSrEEofc236twmH7F7YucJHBgEarjlHQ

Great additions of all those snowy eastern North America spots.  Those MI and NY sites have always seemed to be tops for relatively low elevation areas due to that lake influence.  If it weren’t for elevation, it would basically be no contest on the annual snowfall for those sites sitting downwind of those moisture sources.  Some of those sites actually could be in contention for the highest i annual snowfall on the entire continent for those elevations, simply because it’s hard to get to quite those levels on the west coast right down near sea level.  If those sites are getting up to 1,000’ or more in elevation though, it might not quite cut it vs. spots like Alyeska.  While they report an average of 213” a season there at their base elevation of 250’, that quickly rises to 530” at mid-mountain.  If there are any of those sites off the lakes that are really snowy down near sea level though, it would seem like they could be in contention.

I always check on the Chic Chocs as well to see what the latest averages are that they’re reporting, and I continue to see numbers in the range of 240”, 275”, and even close to 300”, but I’ve just never seen anything yet that has them really pushing well past that 300” mark.

I’ve even checked out Newfoundland and Greenland to see if anything has yet popped up to really suggest numbers pushing past that 300” barrier, but I tend to find numbers in the 150” to 250” range.  Part of the issue is that as you head farther north, snow preservation becomes fantastic, but being on the eastern side of a continent in the northern hemisphere, you’re moving into a much drier climate.  And with the cold temperatures, bodies of water are frozen much of the winter and can’t contribute to snowfall like they otherwise would.

As we know, the Northern Greens have sort of a stacked setup in many aspects of acquiring snow in that they’ve got some decent elevation, decent latitude, ~4,000’ of relief from the lowlands off to the northwest, the shape of the range is in the form of a 250-mile long N-S spine that’s somewhat perpendicular to prevailing winds, they’re downwind of the Great Lakes to get moisture from that source, they’re close enough to the coast to get in on most coastal storms to some degree, etc., etc.

There probably are some spots in eastern North America that average more annual snowfall than the high elevations of the Northern Greens, but I just haven’t found anything consistent enough yet to really make the case.  It’s likely one of those situations where there’s just no one in those places observing it year after year, while we’ve got the resorts here that are doing it in a fairly public way, constantly.  Obviously there are many folks that take issue with the numbers that come out of places like Jay Peak, since they’re a business, and getting snow is certainly in their best interest.  That issue of trustworthiness comes up frequently here in the thread, but the ridiculous snowfall they seem get there was only reinforced, yet again, when we were there in the backcountry skiing in 20” of champagne on Sunday.

That’s sort of the same thing going on with those sites downwind of the lakes though – there may be sites that are getting more overall frozen winter moisture (such as Mt. Washington in NH), but in the end, the highest snowfall “numbers” might end up coming out of places that get a solid amount of moisture and capitalize on it with snow that has the dendritic structure for incredible loft.  We know the Northern Greens often do that extremely well, and that could be a “secret sauce” component among all those factors contributing to the snowfall that I listed above that pushes the numbers over the top.

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1 hour ago, J.Spin said:

 

 

 

 

Great additions of all those snowy eastern North America spots.  Those MI and NY sites have always seemed to be tops for relatively low elevation areas due to that lake influence.  If it weren’t for elevation, it would basically be no contest on the annual snowfall for those sites sitting downwind of those moisture sources.  Some of those sites actually could be in contention for the highest i annual snowfall on the entire continent for those elevations, simply because it’s hard to get to quite those levels on the west coast right down near sea level.  If those sites are getting up to 1,000’ or more in elevation though, it might not quite cut it vs. spots like Alyeska.  While they report an average of 213” a season there at their base elevation of 250’, that quickly rises to 530” at mid-mountain.  If there are any of those sites off the lakes that are really snowy down near sea level though, it would seem like they could be in contention.

I always check on the Chic Chocs as well to see what the latest averages are that they’re reporting, and I continue to see numbers in the range of 240”, 275”, and even close to 300”, but I’ve just never seen anything yet that has them really pushing well past that 300” mark.

I’ve even checked out Newfoundland and Greenland to see if anything has yet popped up to really suggest numbers pushing past that 300” barrier, but I tend to find numbers in the 150” to 250” range.  Part of the issue is that as you head farther north, snow preservation becomes fantastic, but being on the eastern side of a continent in the northern hemisphere, you’re moving into a much drier climate.  And with the cold temperatures, bodies of water are frozen much of the winter and can’t contribute to snowfall like they otherwise would.

As we know, the Northern Greens have sort of a stacked setup in many aspects of acquiring snow in that they’ve got some decent elevation, decent latitude, ~4,000’ of relief from the lowlands off to the northwest, the shape of the range is in the form of a 250-mile long N-S spine that’s somewhat perpendicular to prevailing winds, they’re downwind of the Great Lakes to get moisture from that source, they’re close enough to the coast to get in on most coastal storms to some degree, etc., etc.

There probably are some spots in eastern North America that average more annual snowfall than the high elevations of the Northern Greens, but I just haven’t found anything consistent enough yet to really make the case.  It’s likely one of those situations where there’s just no one in those places observing it year after year, while we’ve got the resorts here that are doing it in a fairly public way, constantly.  Obviously there are many folks that take issue with the numbers that come out of places like Jay Peak, since they’re a business, and getting snow is certainly in their best interest.  That issue of trustworthiness comes up frequently here in the thread, but the ridiculous snowfall they seem get there was only reinforced, yet again, when we were there in the backcountry skiing in 20” of champagne on Sunday.

That’s sort of the same thing going on with those sites downwind of the lakes though – there may be sites that are getting more overall frozen winter moisture (such as Mt. Washington in NH), but in the end, the highest snowfall “numbers” might end up coming out of places that get a solid amount of moisture and capitalize on it with snow that has the dendritic structure for incredible loft.  We know the Northern Greens often do that extremely well, and that could be a “secret sauce” component among all those factors contributing to the snowfall that I listed above that pushes the numbers over the top.

I think you’re spot on with several points such as the farther north generally the less  precipitation. It’s also possible that there aren’t quality observations like your own coming out of areas like the chic chocs especially at the higher elevations to truly measure every inch that falls each season. Requires Some dedication To measure accurately and frequently in a snowy place like that. Lastly I did read through your report of Big jay. I have never been up there but you mentioned the snow was already around 40” deep at 2000’. We discussed The Nohrsc mapping a month or so ago and it has had that whole Jay area at 20-30” for the past month or so which just can’t be right at higher elevations. I have Recently noticed with Nohrsc that it seems to heavily weigh real on the ground observations more than anything when regarding the shading on the map. A cocorahs reporter had 36” depth in the southern adk a couple days ago and Nohrsc updated its map to show a 30-40” zone in that area. 

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7 minutes ago, LaGrangewx said:

I think you’re spot on with several points such as the farther north generally the less  precipitation. It’s also possible that there aren’t quality observations like your own coming out of areas like the chic chocs especially at the higher elevations to truly measure every inch that falls each season. Requires Some dedication To measure accurately and frequently in a snowy place like that. Lastly I did read through your report of Big jay. I have never been up there but you mentioned the snow was already around 40” deep at 2000’. We discussed The Nohrsc mapping a month or so ago and it has had that whole Jay area at 20-30” for the past month or so which just can’t be right at higher elevations. I have Recently noticed with Nohrsc that it seems to heavily weigh real on the ground observations more than anything when regarding the shading on the map. A cocorahs reporter had 36” depth in the southern adk a couple days ago and Nohrsc updated its map to show a 30-40” zone in that area. 

Measuring in many areas in NNE definitely requires a lot of diligence. I think that if you asked some random person who doesn't care much about the weather in his town how much snowfall he receives a season he'd say something like "100 inches or so." Unless you are counting every .5" of fluff before it blows away or sublimates you will lose quite a bit over the course of a season. The "stick a ruler in the pile every few days" method misses so much snow. You can see it pretty well in J. Spin's obs. His depth is still at 20" despite having a really solid month of snow. Just sticking a ruler in the pack every other day wouldn't capture most of what actually fell at his site in February.

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11 hours ago, BuffaloWeather said:

Upslope has less QPF in it then LES though. I saw a report on here last week of .19 QPF and 7.7" of snow that's incredible. LES is usually 1:15-1:25. It's been a terrible year for the tug hill, but they still have quite a bit up there.

 

 

 

 

We used to get 30 to 1 or even 40 to 1 blower powder on LES all the time back when I went to school out in ITH. The ratio does come down a bit in heavier events simply due to the settling that happens naturally. Hard to go 40 to 1 on 20 inches of snow.

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Valdez, Alaska averages 285" for 1991-2020.  Losing the 1989-90 season's 552" dropped the 30-year average a bit.  Their site was at 23' thru 2008 then moved to a spot at 95'.

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If there was one spot I had to pick to place an observer where we don't have one in the east, it would probably be Kibby Mountain Maine. They probably get walloped with upslope and likely benefit from a lot of the coastal storms. They are nestled in basically a horseshoe-shaped area of very high elevation with a lot of flat topography off to their W and NW. The snow up there is legendary for snow mobilers who bother to make the trek as dryslot often mentions.

KibbyMountainTopo.png.dce4b9f48f1d4d8852a5285cb4c9d810.png

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9 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

If there was one spot I had to pick to place an observer where we don't have one in the east, it would probably be Kibby Mountain Maine. They probably get walloped with upslope and likely benefit from a lot of the coastal storms. They are nestled in basically a horseshoe-shaped area of very high elevation with a lot of flat topography off to their W and NW. The snow up there is legendary for snow mobilers who bother to make the trek as dryslot often mentions.

KibbyMountainTopo.png.dce4b9f48f1d4d8852a5285cb4c9d810.png

Yes That area and the border crossing in New Hampshire. There are actually 2 spots that report depth sometimes. One at Second Connecticut Lake and the other is right above it. They seem to report considerably more on average than the 1st Connecticut lake so I can’t imagine what the crest at the border crossing would have. Uploaded an example I came across. They also reported last week and had more than the rest of that area.

5A9B8829-9674-4007-9DAB-CB0C464BE195.jpeg

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2 minutes ago, LaGrangewx said:

Yes That area and the border crossing in New Hampshire. There are actually 2 spots that report depth sometimes. One at Second Connecticut Lake and the other is right above it. They seem to report considerably more on average than the 1st Connecticut lake so I can’t imagine what the crest at the border crossing would have. Uploaded an example I came across. They also reported last week and had more than the rest of that area.

That one north of the Second Lake is interesting. It seems like it's near East Inlet rd or maybe the snowmobile warming hut near Deer Mountain campround. Other than a few camps near Second Lake there's nothing else up there. It wouldn't surprise me if that area and up near the border has 2x the pack of the First Lake based on what I've seen when I've been up there. 

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9 minutes ago, wx2fish said:

That one north of the Second Lake is interesting. It seems like it's near East Inlet rd or maybe the snowmobile warming hut near Deer Mountain campround. Other than a few camps near Second Lake there's nothing else up there. It wouldn't surprise me if that area and up near the border has 2x the pack of the First Lake based on what I've seen when I've been up there. 

Until you hit the border station and immediately look out on the flat farmlands of the Eastern Townships in PQ.  That transition is so startling.  

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54 minutes ago, wx2fish said:

That one north of the Second Lake is interesting. It seems like it's near East Inlet rd or maybe the snowmobile warming hut near Deer Mountain campround. Other than a few camps near Second Lake there's nothing else up there. It wouldn't surprise me if that area and up near the border has 2x the pack of the First Lake based on what I've seen when I've been up there. 

In its lamentedly short period of recording weather data, Diamond Pond, east of the CT lakes, averaged about 230" at 2200'.  Kibby summit is a thousand feet taller but the better potential would be among the wind turbines on the ridge to Kibby's south, which get up over 3100'.  Convince the windmills' owners to have the full time maintenance personnel establish and monitor/record from a site on the ridge between the spinners would be interesting.  The access roads are all on the west side of the ridge so would catch that part of upslope but miss the high-Froude dumps to the east.   If only . . .

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1 hour ago, ORH_wxman said:

If there was one spot I had to pick to place an observer where we don't have one in the east, it would probably be Kibby Mountain Maine. They probably get walloped with upslope and likely benefit from a lot of the coastal storms. They are nestled in basically a horseshoe-shaped area of very high elevation with a lot of flat topography off to their W and NW. The snow up there is legendary for snow mobilers who bother to make the trek as dryslot often mentions.

KibbyMountainTopo.png.dce4b9f48f1d4d8852a5285cb4c9d810.png

That's the place Dryslot has posted photos of before, right?  The topography there looks perfect for WNW flow.  

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1 hour ago, ORH_wxman said:

 

 

 

We used to get 30 to 1 or even 40 to 1 blower powder on LES all the time back when I went to school out in ITH. The ratio does come down a bit in heavier events simply due to the settling that happens naturally. Hard to go 40 to 1 on 20 inches of snow.

Yeah it seems off of Erie the ratios are lower than off of Ontario recently. Maybe due to higher lake temps off of Erie or warmer air temps aloft? It seems most events at my location have been 1:15-1:20. Some really early season events are 1:10. the event last week was 1:22. Temps haven't been really cold for good ratios in awhile. 

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