Radders Posted August 11, 2014 Author Share Posted August 11, 2014 The Lyndon State College snow hole....for the most part you'll be ok if you avoid the areas that downslope off the Whites towards St Johnsbury and the upper CT Valley. Even N.NH has some holes where down slope off the Presidentials. In that area of VT though, if you stay above 1500ft you're all set...like Coles Pond is sort of in the downslope triangle but at over 2,000ft that effect is null and they actually upslope haha. So in the Stowe area, is most of the downsloping effect really east of the CC Putnam State Forest range? The village of Stowe is sort of stuck between two major mountain ranges so I am assuming it doesn't really suffer from a downslope wind. The lower snowfall in the village (relative to the surrounding mountains) is mostly elevation dependent right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 North ORH best in the country for snow, true fact It's probably one of the best snow retention spots in the country within 10 miles of a city with a population over 100k....but that's about it, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whineminster Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 It's probably one of the best snow retention spots in the country within 10 miles of a city with a population over 100k....but that's about it, lol. except for the Tolland hills? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 except for the Tolland hills? Obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Pittsburg NH has more People there in the winter compared to summer. Big part of the economy thanks to snowmobilers. I've heard of ridiculous stories of snowmobiling third CT lake in May this year lol. You have retention and upslope there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 So in the Stowe area, is most of the downsloping effect really east of the CC Putnam State Forest range? The village of Stowe is sort of stuck between two major mountain ranges so I am assuming it doesn't really suffer from a downslope wind. The lower snowfall in the village (relative to the surrounding mountains) is mostly elevation dependent right? Well it depends on the event and wind direction. I can give you the rundown in more detail later....on the mobile device for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamarack Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Pretty telling map to where the best snow avg areas are for up here which is the same area that retains snow pack as Will mentioned and i agree with as well Maines Avg Snowfall.jpg This map seriously underestimates snowfall west of Fort Kent and north of Clayton Lake, due to lack of data. That area has just 3 co-op sites, each with flaws. Clayton, at 1000' elev, has lots of skipped obs throughout its records, and the other two are at about 600' elev (500-1000' lower than the region as a whole) and their snow measurements are consistent with once-a-day measuring, or worse, snowfall estimated by change in snow depth. Sometimes that area would get only moderate snow from a system that pounded CAR, but far more often (when I lived in Ft. Kent) I'd leave home with 2-4" new and find 6-10" up at Rocky Mountain, a prominance about 10 miles NW of Allagash Village. If there were half a dozen locations providing regular and conscientious measurements in that area, I think 130-150" would be closer to the truth. (Will never happen - SWE is important for flood concerns, but only weenies care how many inches of snow fell.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Pittsburg NH has more People there in the winter compared to summer. Big part of the economy thanks to snowmobilers. I've heard of ridiculous stories of snowmobiling third CT lake in May this year lol. You have retention and upslope there. The trees up there almost start turning into those smaller evergreens that you see on the northern extent of the boreal forests up in Canada and Siberia. It's really a very cold place up there. It is too bad we don't have more obs from that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dryslot Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 This map seriously underestimates snowfall west of Fort Kent and north of Clayton Lake, due to lack of data. That area has just 3 co-op sites, each with flaws. Clayton, at 1000' elev, has lots of skipped obs throughout its records, and the other two are at about 600' elev (500-1000' lower than the region as a whole) and their snow measurements are consistent with once-a-day measuring, or worse, snowfall estimated by change in snow depth. Sometimes that area would get only moderate snow from a system that pounded CAR, but far more often (when I lived in Ft. Kent) I'd leave home with 2-4" new and find 6-10" up at Rocky Mountain, a prominance about 10 miles NW of Allagash Village. If there were half a dozen locations providing regular and conscientious measurements in that area, I think 130-150" would be closer to the truth. (Will never happen - SWE is important for flood concerns, but only weenies care how many inches of snow fell.) That whole far NNW area is data sparse, Its also sparse of fuel as well so you better be bringing some along, One thing about snowmobiling, Is you never pass up the opportunity to put fuel in your sled no matter how little or how much, You just never know where you may end up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 The trees up there almost start turning into those smaller evergreens that you see on the northern extent of the boreal forests up in Canada and Siberia. It's really a very cold place up there. It is too bad we don't have more obs from that area. I noticed that as well up by Wyman lake In ME when I went rafting years ago. The place just looked cold lol. It's too bad the border crossing from NH to Canada doesn't have good obs. It's like 2400' there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 I noticed that as well up by Wyman lake In ME when I went rafting years ago. The place just looked cold lol. It's too bad the border crossing from NH to Canada doesn't have good obs. It's like 2400' there. The whole plateau between Pittsburg and Jackman has basically zero obs and that is a good 50-60 miles by way of crow flying...then you might have to go another 70 miles to get another coop up by CLayton Lake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TauntonBlizzard2013 Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Bartlett, Crawford notch area is a favorite of mine. That area holds sneaky cold and does pretty well all around. During the disaster that was the winter of 11-12 we went up to attitash in mid Jan. All the way up there was barely any snow. Even eating at the pizza hut a little way before the center of Conway, there was not much. It began raining and snowing as we left, and by the time we got to attitash down the road, it was all snow. They picked up a good 8-9 inches overnight, with close to a foot at the summit, and down the road just a little ways, next to nothing. That was also the first area that seemed to have any appreciable depth before that event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted August 11, 2014 Share Posted August 11, 2014 Anyone have a snow depth days comparison between some of the NNE sites? I'm on the phone...otherwise I'd look myself. Does anyone know if there's a way to get SDD info from CoCoRAHS sites aside from manually adding up all the values? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radders Posted August 11, 2014 Author Share Posted August 11, 2014 Well it depends on the event and wind direction. I can give you the rundown in more detail later....on the mobile device for now. Thanks. Would be interested in hearing from a local what are the idiosyncrasies of snowfall in the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wxeyeNH Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 When I sold my Boston business 10 years ago I wanted to move to a snowy place with real winters. I balanced snow totals but also access to civilization. Places like Jay in Vermont were just too far from main cities. I also looked a real synoptic snow verses day of flurries that add up to a few inches but melt and sublimate right away. I finally chose a farmhouse at 1100 feet in the NW sections of the lake region. Average probably 100" but do great with CAD coming down from the whites. For some reason the past few years Brian (Dendrite) who lives 20 or so miles SSE of me has done better. Storm tracks seem to just be a bit too far SE for me to take the maxium but many times my higher elevation helps. I also choose this location as Boston is only 2 hours south on Rt 93. There are a few houses around my town at 1700 to 1900 and its interesting to dive up and down our road and watch the rain/snow line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dendrite Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Does anyone know if there's a way to get SDD info from CoCoRAHS sites aside from manually adding up all the values? No idea. I know of this site with some New England stations... http://www.wermenh.com/sdd/index.html This site gives you average monthly/annual snow depth. It's a coarse value, but is essentially the same comparison. http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/coopmap/ My closest COOP site: http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?nh3182 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Gene you definitely avg less than 100". My guess is probably 79-82". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nittany88 Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Underhell. Especially when you're talking 9". 1-2" of 40-50:1 is a heck of a lot easier to pull off. Upslope powder is literally insane when it comes to ratios though. In the giant BTV upslope storm, the 24 hour precip was 0.55" and snowfall of 26", that's 50:1 right there. I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure that is a NWS employee site. I think what it comes down to is the stuff is so fluffy, especially late in an upslope storm, that coring it is likely to lose some moisture somewhere. I know those are rare ratios once over 40:1, but I see a fair number of 40-60 to 1 ratios on the CoCoRAHS site with some snowfalls, I think it's just the margin for error is so great with such ridiculous snow growth. On this side of the mountain in town we get lower ratios. I've noticed a lot of times the liquid will be similar with half the snowfall (say 18:1 ratios instead of 40:1). Even up at the mountain, the east side is the windy side with some down sloping, so I think even though we are snowing hard, I think the flake structure is smaller. I've noticed that on many occasions where the Stowe Village guy comes in with similar liquid but less snowfall due to ratios. Yes that is a NWS employee station. It was this gem of an event: Day 1- Day 2- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nittany88 Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 FWIW, the average snow ratio for upslope snow in BTV CWA (2007-2012) is 28:1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 That seems a little far fetched. I bet QPF was higher, but for whatever reason it's only .55". 24 hr storm of 50:1 ratios is virtually impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamarack Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 The whole plateau between Pittsburg and Jackman has basically zero obs and that is a good 50-60 miles by way of crow flying...then you might have to go another 70 miles to get another coop up by CLayton Lake. It seems like Clayton obs stopped a year or so ago, unless they're now stored in a different internet site. However, there's currently obs being recorded at Pittston Farm, about a dozen miles NW of the north end of Moosehead. Less than 20 yr records, though. Somewhere, the records at Big Black must be available, too, though that station's not a co-op and is even younger than Pittston. Edit: Snow at 40-50:1 is weird. I've only seen it twice, both times 4.5" with LE of 0.10", cold feathers in flat calm. Part of the weirdness was trying to make a snowball - a double-handed scoop compacted to about marble size. Until the new snow approached 4", one could tell whether it rested on a light or dark surface; seeing 3"+ of "gray" snow on a black surface was decidedly odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Gene you definitely avg less than 100". My guess is probably 79-82". If you were to remove the snow I get from upslope, that would probably be my average as well here. In the 5 years I've been here, I seem to be in the 115-120" range...but 2010-2011 skewed that with over 150" in town (220" in Underhill though on the otherside). I know it seems like we don't get synoptic snows (lol) and all we get is flurries that subliminate...but I bet our average synoptic snow is similar to points east, we just don't have the magnitude of CAD during thaws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nittany88 Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 That seems a little far fetched. I bet QPF was higher, but for whatever reason it's only .55". 24 hr storm of 50:1 ratios is virtually impossible. Well naturally, the storm total on ground was different. This was 6-hour snow measurements. But the common theory is that 50:1 is virtually impossible, but there's been quite a few upslope events that I've witnessed up here that throw that theory away. It could be slightly underdone being that ASOS does underdo it, but it can't be that far off. Now not every upslope event is 50:1, average is 28:1, but I've seen it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 That seems a little far fetched. I bet QPF was higher, but for whatever reason it's only .55". 24 hr storm of 50:1 ratios is virtually impossible. It is, but then again, like I said earlier, I see those types of ratios quite a bit on the CoCoRAHS reports in the winter when upslope is occurring. Its hard to comprehend just how fluffy the snow can be for most folks not used to it. Well naturally, the storm total on ground was different. This was 6-hour snow measurements. But the common theory is that 50:1 is virtually impossible, but there's been quite a few upslope events that I've witnessed up here that throw that theory away. It could be slightly underdone being that ASOS does underdo it, but it can't be that far off. Now not every upslope event is 50:1, average is 28:1, but I've seen it happen. Bingo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Right, nobody said they can't happen for a period of time, but that time is usually rather brief. Things like moisture flux, temp flux, winds etc make the allowance for those ratios short lived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nittany88 Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 When you factor in the next day, ratios lowered to just over 40:1 for the event. \ 0.22" and 6.5" for a 30:1. That makes total 0.77" and just under 33", about 40:1. Here's the NWS write-up for anyone interested: http://www.erh.noaa.gov/btv/events/02Jan2010/ and Total Snow: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 If you were to remove the snow I get from upslope, that would probably be my average as well here. In the 5 years I've been here, I seem to be in the 115-120" range...but 2010-2011 skewed that with over 150" in town (220" in Underhill though on the otherside). I know it seems like we don't get synoptic snows (lol) and all we get is flurries that subliminate...but I bet our average synoptic snow is similar to points east, we just don't have the magnitude of CAD during thaws. Yeah it's important to think long term too. He's done well during a number of years, but my guess is long term is around 80-82" give or take a couple. It's just that it never melts. You'd have to go to Franconia notch to see over 100". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nittany88 Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 When your dendritic snow growth is 13,000 feet in depth, I wouldn't rule it out haha. Figure 4 shows the NAM (North American Model) 12 km sounding at Burlington, Vermont at 0600 UTC 3 January 2010. The model sounding shows a deep surface to 30,000 feet above ground level layer of near saturated conditions, along with a large favorable region of snowflake dendrite growth from near the surface to 13,000 feet above ground level (purple box). Furthermore, upward motion favorable for producing precipitation was indicated by the sounding. These factors in the temperature, moisture, and vertical motion profiles were all favorable for large snow flake production, and were a significant factor in snow-to-liquid ratios approaching 40:1 compared to a normal value closer to 13:1 in the Burlington area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 30-40:1 ratios are certainly common there. That's probably not atypical during your classic upslope, esp 30:1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radarman Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 It is, but then again, like I said earlier, I see those types of ratios quite a bit on the CoCoRAHS reports in the winter when upslope is occurring. Its hard to comprehend just how fluffy the snow can be for most folks not used to it. Bingo. What kind of ratios were the Feb 2012 upslope blitz? I remember ripping my pole through like 3' of snow with barely any resistance. Also was bit by a few snow snakes lurking under the fluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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