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People have impulse control of a dog. That is why the shutdowns sucked in the end. It was just random shutdowns with no national plan in place to contain the virus. Through math, I see about half of the US could become effected and a 3rd seriously effected. They ain't all old people either. You'll be scarred for life and in the low percentage worst case, dead.

To be selfish is not patriotic.

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People have impulse control of a dog. That is why the shutdowns sucked in the end. It was just random shutdowns with no national plan in place to contain the virus. Through math, I see about half of the US could become effected and a 3rd seriously effected. They ain't all old people either. You'll be scarred for life and in the low percentage worst case, dead.

To be selfish is not patriotic.

That’s life, enjoy it in your own way brother

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There is not a lot of middle ground it seems, just like politics.  I'm wearing a mask for any outdoor gatherings, but if they end up small or everyone else is pretty relaxed and not wearing masks, I'll take it off.  If I go out to the bar I will definitely wear a mask and make sure to socially distance, but I've only been in that scenario once since mid March.

It’s an interesting dynamic for sure. The need for control is pretty fascinating to me.

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An impossible ask, especially in the age of nonlinear warfare. A source can be found for every stance, and that’s intentional.

“Masks work” ... “Masks don’t work”

The game being played goes beyond a virus, which should be clear to all, regardless how one handles the virus

I’m totally fine with someone wearing a mask, I wouldn’t do it but I understand the choice others have made


Just got to pick your lane and live in it.
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I'm not a Trump fan but there was a missed opportunity with the masks.  He should've marketed and sold Trump masks like maga hats.  Whatever it takes.  Wouldn't solve it entirely but it would help.  If you're not wearing a mask these days, chances are you are a follower of the president.

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I'm not a Trump fan but there was a missed opportunity with the masks.  He should've marketed and sold Trump masks like maga hats.  Whatever it takes.  Wouldn't solve it entirely but it would help.  If you're not wearing a mask these days, chances are you are a follower of the president.

Don’t paint with such a broad brush. Some think politics is a farce all together.

I care as much about who someone votes for as I do about the type of gum they chew. I personally abstain tho it should matter none.

 

People would think my reasons for not wearing a mask are as crazy as I think their reasons for wearing a mask

 

But that’s the thing, I don’t care why people wear a mask. And they shouldn’t care why I don’t. No judgement from me

 

We need each other for reasons that stretch far beyond the virus and politics

 

Let’s say the virus is very real AND the economy collapsing is very real. There is going to be a point in time soon when we won’t care about any of this, it’ll matter how compassionate and prepared you are.

 It’s good we disagree, it’s necessary

 Be good to your neighbors, even the ones breathing that fresh air default_smile.png

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7 minutes ago, King James said:

Don’t paint with such a broad brush. Some think politics is a farce all together.

I care as much about who someone votes for as I do about the type of gum they chew. I personally abstain tho it should matter none.

 

People would think my reasons for not wearing a mask are as crazy as I think their reasons for wearing a mask

 

But that’s the thing, I don’t care why people wear a mask. And they shouldn’t care why I don’t. No judgement from me

 

We need each other for reasons that stretch far beyond the virus and politics

 

Let’s say the virus is very real AND the economy collapsing is very real. There is going to be a point in time soon when we won’t care about any of this, it’ll matter how compassionate and prepared you are.

 It’s good we disagree, it’s necessary

 Be good to your neighbors, even the ones breathing that fresh air default_smile.png

I guess I don't understand why the mask thing has become a big deal.  People act like it's some massive infringement.  Yes, it's inconvenient and uncomfortable especially when worn for a long time, but I look at it as a temporary measure to try to get us through this period of time.  I'll change my tune if the mask rules become a permanent thing, but for now, just going to deal with it.   

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I guess I don't understand why the mask thing has become a big deal.  People act like it's some massive infringement.  Yes, it's inconvenient and uncomfortable especially when worn for a long time, but I look at it as a temporary measure to try to get us through this period of time.  I'll change my tune if the mask rules become a permanent thing, but for now, just going to deal with it.   

I get that and it’s a fair point. But I think you touched on the disconnect. To some it is a massive infringement.

 

It takes all sorts to make the world go round and keep things in check

 

And again, I think all this talk is too late. No matter which lane you picked we are about to run out of road.

 

Tough times ahead

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I haven't worn one in weeks. Crunched the numbers and just feel like a dolt considering the fact that it's a big nothingburger where I live.

This thing kills 90 year old nursing home residents and not very many of them at that. 

I wore one a few times when in Detroit and close by. 

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Deaths haven't risen anywhere. Wake me up when that starts and it better not be 90 year old Gertrude. 

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8 minutes ago, Jonger said:

Deaths haven't risen anywhere. Wake me up when that starts and it better not be 90 year old Gertrude. 

The current rate of deaths (~600 per day on avg) isn't exactly great.  It's only good compared to what it was.  At least it has been consistently trending down, but it will be difficult to keep that going down further as long as we are putting up 30-40k plus cases per day.

The new cases do seem to be skewing younger than before, but probably not to the extent that it seems.  You practically had to be on your death bed to get a test back in March if you were young, especially if you didn't have contact with a known infected person.    

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3 hours ago, King James said:

I get that and it’s a fair point. But I think you touched on the disconnect. To some it is a massive infringement.

 

It takes all sorts to make the world go round and keep things in check

 

And again, I think all this talk is too late. No matter which lane you picked we are about to run out of road.

 

Tough times ahead

I appreciate this conversation, as you have hit on a topic that is crucial to the future of our country and the world. Specifically, “individual freedom” vs. “the collective good”.

In the bigger picture outside of the pandemic, I think it’s critical for people to get past the concept of “everyone is entitled to act certain ways, and that’s ok”. No, it’s not ok, in a lot of situations. And it’s unfortunate that those situations probably need to devalue personal freedom and choice...but if it’s for the greater good, I wish people were more accepting. Personal freedom can’t be used an excuse to stop good collective policies from being implemented.

Two examples come to mind immediately: the environment and health care. Personal freedom must be reduced in order to protect the environment. And that is how it should be and must be. No one should have the right to start a business that creates too much pollution, regardless of how much “demand” there is for a product. Even if people disagree, the actions and policies of the government must align with this, or we are all screwed. We should significantly increase regulations protecting the environment, and reduce or eliminate all other regulations. A good compromise. Why do humans think we can control and mess up the environment, at the expense of other living things (including our fellow humans)?

For health care, unfortunately some people are more unhealthy than others and therefore burden the system more than others. But, for the collective good, we should all chip in and pay the same for health care, if that approach leads to better outcomes for more people. I know there is an incentive to be healthier, in order to live a better life. But that should be a personal incentive, not an economic incentive.

It is unfortunate that, in this country, everything comes down to money. Humans should not be thought of as consumers. There has to be a better approach, where every individual is valued regardless of their wealth. Of course this approach would likely lead to lower aggregate wealth and prosperity vs. today...but it can’t be much worse than the toxic culture we have today, where everyone fights against each other to claim their share by exploiting others. It’s just wrong.

Masks vs. vaccines is even an interesting sub-debate. Personally, I think mandated vaccines crosses the line, as it violates individual freedom too much...because you are injecting a drug into your body. But masks are different, because they are not invasive.

Everything is a balance. Personal freedom should be one consideration, but not THE consideration.

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6 hours ago, Hoosier said:

 

new-blue-shirt-271x300.png.3e241e1cdcca20e51d8015431d28c35f.png

Yeah, just as big an issue is in the bar setting you have to talk loud, so there's no way to effectively socialize and have a good conversation while wearing a mask, yet I would feel significant risk without a mask.

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7 hours ago, Jonger said:

I haven't worn one in weeks. Crunched the numbers and just feel like a dolt considering the fact that it's a big nothingburger where I live.

This thing kills 90 year old nursing home residents and not very many of them at that. 

I wore one a few times when in Detroit and close by. 

This is what you call being uneducated to this pandemic. I am glad Livingston County isn't a hot bed, but you know what wasn't until it was? East Lansing. In a week they have had 76 cases alone connected to a bar there. It is about preventative measures not waiting until there is a problem. So you say you may feel like a dolt, but I'd rather feel like a dolt than be in a hospital bed. You have a preexisting condition as does your son. Be smarter about this.

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4 hours ago, King James said:

The lecturing is wild

Its obvious that it will take at least that and more to convince people this is serious. You have people who think it is just a cold or just impacting old people still. These are myths that have been proven to be false months ago.

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I may not agree but on some level I can understand not wearing a mask in low populated areas/areas where the disease prevalence is basically non existent.  

The mask science seems pretty good as far as reducing transmission.  Science has a way of coming to a conclusion only to later reach a different conclusion, so if the idea of masks resulting in lower transmission is wrong, then imo it's not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.  If masks do reduce transmission, then we get the numbers down and don't have the stories about more cases dominating the news all the time. 

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Its obvious that it will take at least that and more to convince people this is serious. You have people who think it is just a cold or just impacting old people still. These are myths that have been proven to be false months ago.

As always we can only control ourselves, and that’s a beautiful thing. I respect your decisions and approach to this virus.

But be nice to your fellow man. Nothing from Jonger has shown me he’s anything other than a normal dude passionate about weather. He’s neither uneducated nor dumb. He has an opinion that differs from yours.

That’s what makes it all turn
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1 hour ago, King James said:


As always we can only control ourselves, and that’s a beautiful thing. I respect your decisions and approach to this virus.

But be nice to your fellow man. Nothing from Jonger has shown me he’s anything other than a normal dude passionate about weather. He’s neither uneducated nor dumb. He has an opinion that differs from yours.

That’s what makes it all turn

I'm sorry but when other peoples decision's put everyone elses health at risk they need to be called out on it. Look at the explosion in cases in Florida and the giant outbreak that bar in East Lansing caused.

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I'm sorry but when other peoples decision's put everyone elses health at risk they need to be called out on it. Look at the explosion in cases in Florida and the giant outbreak that bar in East Lansing caused.

And none of what you and I say matters. Live with it. Pick your lane and find happiness brother

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KJ I respect elements of your zen attitude but also have to take issue with elements of it - when individual freedom and choice are at the expense of others ability to enjoy freedom and choice, I think a commitment to staying in ones lane/taking your position and sticking with it becomes less zen and more selfish.

We’re (mostly) amateur weather enthusiasts who choose to understand more of the science behind the weather than our peers for the various reasons that make up our enthusiasm. When I saw the coronavirus thread pop up I thought it might fit pretty well given that it would be another very science oriented realm where we may take a little more of an educated amateur approach to discussion like we do the weather. Along that vein my contribution to the dialogue would be that in reading some of the recently published papers, the initial reluctance and conveyance that mask wearing didn’t matter was because all other known and studied coronaviruses to date were only spread when the infected was symptomatic. Only sick and symptomatic people actively spread SARS and the other studied coronaviruses. The medical and virology communities were quick to assume covid19 behaved the same until an overwhelming body of evidence started to show that for not entirely known reasons, a measurable percent of the infected are symptomless. Thus the flip flop on mask wearing recommendations, its as much to protect others from you in case you are infected unbeknownst to yourself as it is to protect you from others.

We have this fierce contingent of our populace that embraces individualism and individual freedoms at all costs, with some reasoning that “this is what our founding fathers wanted”. First of all, that was 250 years ago, this is a wildly different planet now vs then, and second of all you’d do well to take a history class again if that’s all you remember - this American experiment and our statehood were and are about a lot more than individual freedoms. More so about each persons right to have the opportunity to thrive and be happy - not that you can do whatever you want. Mask wearing is more rooted in what we were and are about than your individual choice not to wear a mask. Just my interpretation and opinion. “Promote the general welfare”

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

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KJ I respect elements of your zen attitude but also have to take issue with elements of it - when individual freedom and choice are at the expense of others ability to enjoy freedom and choice, I think a commitment to staying in ones lane/taking your position and sticking with it becomes less zen and more selfish.  We’re (mostly) amateur weather enthusiasts who choose to understand more of the science behind the weather than our peers for the various reasons that make up our enthusiasm. When I saw the coronavirus thread pop up I thought it might fit pretty well given that it would be another very science oriented realm where we may take a little more of an educated amateur approach to discussion like we do the weather. Along that vein my contribution to the dialogue would be that in reading some of the recently published papers, the initial reluctance and conveyance that mask wearing didn’t matter was because all other known and studied coronaviruses to date were only spread when the infected was symptomatic. Only sick and symptomatic people actively spread SARS and the other studied coronaviruses. The medical and virology communities were quick to assume covid19 behaved the same until an overwhelming body of evidence started to show that for not entirely known reasons, a measurable percent of the infected are symptomless. Thus the flip flop on mask wearing recommendations, its as much to protect others from you in case you are infected unbeknownst to yourself as it is to protect you from others.

 

We have this fierce contingent of our populace that embraces individualism and individual freedoms at all costs, with some reasoning that “this is what our founding fathers wanted”. First of all, that was 250 years ago, this is a wildly different planet now vs then, and second of all you’d do well to take a history class again if that’s all you remember - this American experiment and our statehood were and are about a lot more than individual freedoms. More so about each persons right to have the opportunity to thrive and be happy - not that you can do whatever you want. Mask wearing is more rooted in what we were and are about than your individual choice not to wear a mask. Just my interpretation and opinion. “Promote the general welfare”

 

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

 

 

I’ll address this only once cause I love this forum 

But I do not share your trust in government and I question the intent of the implementation of television

 

322 and 846 are numbers that have meaning and I’ll leave it at that.

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1 hour ago, King James said:


As always we can only control ourselves, and that’s a beautiful thing. I respect your decisions and approach to this virus.

But be nice to your fellow man. Nothing from Jonger has shown me he’s anything other than a normal dude passionate about weather. He’s neither uneducated nor dumb. He has an opinion that differs from yours.

That’s what makes it all turn

But wouldn't being nice to your fellow man mean you would wear a mask out of respect to them? What if you unknowingly have the virus because you're asymptomatic? Is it nice of you to go out in public and be spreading your virus because you refuse to wear a mask? Isn't that being selfish and not nice?

Now with that said, I do understand the logic of not wearing a mask. After all, viruses are always circulating around the human population. Maybe we should wear a mask in public at all times? But then again, we have immune systems for a reason, and should have a solid understanding of the science of what we need to do to keep our immune systems functioning properly at all times. But with Covid, it is so new and has proven to be quite deadly to some, so in the short-term, just wear a damn mask until we have a better understanding and a firm grasp on the virus.

If wearing a mask is that much of an inconvenience, then one needs to reassess his / her life on many levels.

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But wouldn't being nice to your fellow man mean you would wear a mask out of respect to them? What if you unknowingly have the virus because you're asymptomatic? Is it nice of you to go out in public and be spreading your virus because you refuse to wear a mask? Isn't that being selfish and not nice?

Now with that said, I do understand the logic of not wearing a mask. After all, viruses are always circulating around the human population. Maybe we should wear a mask in public at all times? But then again, we have immune systems for a reason, and should have a solid understanding of the science of what we need to do to keep our immune systems functioning properly at all times. But with Covid, it is so new and has proven to be quite deadly to some, so in the short-term, just wear a damn mask until we have a better understanding and a firm grasp on the virus.

If wearing a mask is that much of an inconvenience, then one needs to reassess his / her life on many levels.

I don’t need to reassess my life, though I constantly do, that’s growth. But if you’re ever in need I won’t turn you away. Thanks for the thoughts

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55 minutes ago, King James said:

Live with it.

That's pretty much the entire problem, though. The science at this moment points to a significant number of people literally not being able to 'live with it' if everyone that can doesn't wear a mask in public while this pandemic is happening.

I have an immediate family member that is temporarily immunocompromised that I'm trying my best to protect but it feels as if people like you just don't seem to care about the risk you are placing on others like him. You, unfortunately in this case, are a citizen of the same county as I am and it's entirely possible we may physically cross paths. While I agree arguments over the internet usually don't matter, what you do could very well affect what happens to someone I care about in the future.

I recognize that is is a bad situation for everyone for varying reasons but I don't think it's a huge ask to wear a mask so those that may be in a worse situation have a better chance of getting through this. I'm not asking anyone to trust the government or what's on television but to have a bit of compassion for everyone else that needs it right now. I'm not personally in an age group that has to worry about this as much but I choose to wear a mask when I'm in public for the ones who may fight for their lives if they catch this.

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That's pretty much the entire problem, though. The science at this moment points to a significant number of people literally not being able to 'live with it' if everyone that can doesn't wear a mask in public while this pandemic is happening.
I have an immediate family member that is temporarily immunocompromised that I'm trying my best to protect but it feels as if people like you just don't seem to care about the risk you are placing on others like him. You, unfortunately in this case, are a citizen of the same county as I am and it's entirely possible we may physically cross paths. While I agree arguments over the internet usually don't matter, what you do could very well affect what happens to someone I care about in the future.
I recognize that is is a bad situation for everyone for varying reasons but I don't think it's a huge ask to wear a mask so those that may be in a worse situation have a better chance of getting through this. I'm not asking anyone to trust the government or what's on television but to have a bit of compassion for everyone else that needs it right now. I'm not personally in an age group that has to worry about this as much but I choose to wear a mask when I'm in public for the ones who may fight for their lives if they catch this.

Are you aware of nonlinear warfare? For every link you can provide that say masks help, I can provide one that says they do not. And that goes for pretty much any “news” at this point. We are in deep and that much we can all recognize. You have a source, I have a source, and your neighbor has a source.

Why is this? You and I could meet at a bar and I bet you could convince me to wear a mask if the conversation was sincere. I love my fellow man

So why does the news, internet, tv, and science (CIG and Nature magazine 1984 Silvertooth sidebar as breadcrumbs), pin me against you when we are sharing the same experience and reacting differently?

I consider the possibility that mask wearers and non mask wearers are very much alike and seeking the same resolution....a life free of fear.

The source of the fear, IMO, is up for debate and where that conversation in the bar would naturally go.

We pick up the tab at the end of the night and agree no matter what to help each other when the time comes.
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