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46 minutes ago, dta1984 said:

Again, business owners should be allowed to make this decision on their own. Maybe the government shouldn’t mandate it (but I’m okay if they do), but the government also shouldn’t prevent individual business owners from making this choice. The Arizona one looks especially problematic in this respect. I won’t put another dime into any state’s economy that passes a bill that bars businesses from refusing service to the unvaccinated.

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42 minutes ago, dta1984 said:

I'm surprised that you're so in favor of this sort of government overreach. Sure the state government can stay out of requiring vaccine passports but why push their agenda on private businesses?

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19 minutes ago, TimB84 said:

Again, business owners should be allowed to make this decision on their own. Maybe the government shouldn’t mandate it (but I’m okay if they do), but the government also shouldn’t prevent individual business owners from making this choice. The Arizona one looks especially problematic in this respect. I won’t put another dime into any state’s economy that passes a bill that bars businesses from refusing service to the unvaccinated.

If you're severely immunocompromised and can't receive the vaccine, I guess find another business then?

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12 minutes ago, mattb65 said:

I'm surprised that you're so in favor of this sort of government overreach. Sure the state government can stay out of requiring vaccine passports but why push their agenda on private businesses?

Creating a segregated society is not how we move this country forward. 

As Gov Desantis said " “requiring vaccine passports for taking part in everyday life such as attending a sporting event, patronizing a restaurant or going to a movie theater would create two classes of citizens based on vaccination.”"

 

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21 minutes ago, TimB84 said:

Again, business owners should be allowed to make this decision on their own. Maybe the government shouldn’t mandate it (but I’m okay if they do), but the government also shouldn’t prevent individual business owners from making this choice. The Arizona one looks especially problematic in this respect. I won’t put another dime into any state’s economy that passes a bill that bars businesses from refusing service to the unvaccinated.

Actually agree. Although, it is on my side of the bias so it bothers me a lot less than if they required a vaccine passport. 

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4 minutes ago, dta1984 said:

Creating a segregated society is not how we move this country forward. 

As Gov Desantis said " “requiring vaccine passports for taking part in everyday life such as attending a sporting event, patronizing a restaurant or going to a movie theater would create two classes of citizens based on vaccination.”"

 

Comparing this to segregation is extremist. Period.

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5 minutes ago, Hoosier said:

If you're severely immunocompromised and can't receive the vaccine, I guess find another business then?

That’s the beauty of our society. You can shop online, order curbside pickup, or go to one of a business’s many competitors.

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3 minutes ago, TimB84 said:

Comparing this to segregation is extremist. Period.

You're aware that the term Segregation can refer to more than just race right?  

Segregation, separation of groups of people with differing characteristics, often taken to connote a condition of inequality. 

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11 minutes ago, dta1984 said:

Creating a segregated society is not how we move this country forward. 

As Gov Desantis said " “requiring vaccine passports for taking part in everyday life such as attending a sporting event, patronizing a restaurant or going to a movie theater would create two classes of citizens based on vaccination.”"

 

Except for rare circumstances, anyone can choose to get vaccinated.  Comparing this to something like the ugly history of segregation which has been based on innate qualities most commonly race is a pretty terrible false equivalency. 

There was also no rational basis to segregate people based on things like race or gender in the past.  There is a very clearly rational basis to give vaccinated individuals different treatment compared to unvaccinated people given the current circumstances. 

If a business suffers because of giving preferential treatment to those vaccinated then the free market will sort things out,  isn't that what most conservatives preach?

 

Also in terms of moving the country forward,  we do so by crushing the pandemic, the best way to do that is by everyone that is able getting vaccinated. 

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3 minutes ago, dta1984 said:

You're aware that the term Segregation can refer to more than just race right?  

Segregation, separation of groups of people with differing characteristics, often taken to connote a condition of inequality. 

“Unvaccinated” is not a characteristic. It’s a choice.

And I’ll double down on what I said last night after a few drinks, except now I’m completely sober: if Ron DeSantis helps guide your thinking on any topic, we are on two completely different wavelengths and it is impossible to find common ground.

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8 minutes ago, mattb65 said:

Except for rare circumstances, anyone can choose to get vaccinated.  Comparing this to something like the ugly history of segregation which has been based on innate qualities most commonly race is a pretty terrible false equivalency. 

There was also no rational basis to segregate people based on things like race or gender in the past.  There is a very clearly rational basis to give vaccinated individuals different treatment compared to unvaccinated people given the current circumstances. 

If a business suffers because of giving preferential treatment to those vaccinated then the free market will sort things out,  isn't that what most conservatives preach?

 

Also in terms of moving the country forward,  we do so by crushing the pandemic, the best way to do that is by everyone that is able getting vaccinated. 

I did not compare this to the history of segregation.  Everything is not about race.   If you don't like the term Segregation, let's replace it with something else.

Yes, let's get the most vulnerable vaccinated and move on. 

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10 minutes ago, TimB84 said:

“Unvaccinated” is not a characteristic. It’s a choice.

And I’ll double down on what I said last night after a few drinks, except now I’m completely sober: if Ron DeSantis helps guide your thinking on any topic, we are on two completely different wavelengths and it is impossible to find common ground.

Honest question, is there any republican you wouldnt say that about?

 

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Just now, schoeppeya said:

Honest question, is there any republican you wouldnt say that about?

 

Yes.

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12 minutes ago, mattb65 said:

Except for rare circumstances, anyone can choose to get vaccinated.  Comparing this to something like the ugly history of segregation which has been based on innate qualities most commonly race is a pretty terrible false equivalency. 

There was also no rational basis to segregate people based on things like race or gender in the past.  There is a very clearly rational basis to give vaccinated individuals different treatment compared to unvaccinated people given the current circumstances. 

If a business suffers because of giving preferential treatment to those vaccinated then the free market will sort things out,  isn't that what most conservatives preach?

 

Also in terms of moving the country forward,  we do so by crushing the pandemic, the best way to do that is by everyone that is able getting vaccinated. 

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cub21ueWNvbnRlbnQuY29tL2QvcGxheWxpc3QvYWFlYTRlNjktYWY1MS00OTVlLWFmYzktYTk3NjAxNDY5MjJiL2IwMjQ3MzY3LTg4MmYtNDY3Yy05ODI2LWFjMTYwMTZmYTE1Yy85MTMyZmQ1YS04ZTZkLTQ0Y2ItYTliYS1hYzE2MDE2ZmExNWMvcG9kY2FzdC5yc3M/episode/ODNmMzBmNmItZmFlZS00N2QwLWFlOGItYWNmNzAxNDNmZjZi?ep=14

I listen to this the other night. Interesting arguments. Any sort of employer mandates are going to be challenging legally speaking before the fda grants full licensure. Seems like there's much more leeway and history with respect to international travel and immigration. There's already required vaccines for entering certain country and immigrating to certain countries. 

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25 minutes ago, schoeppeya said:

Who?

 

Even GW Bush is palatable compared to what we have today.

I’m not going to name a list of names, it would quickly turn into a list of people who dared to disagree with a certain person. (But you get the point, that list includes every Republican nominee for President this century except for that person.)

Edit: also not saying I support any of them or would vote for them, but I could at least find common ground with most people who did before the divisions in this country became what they are today.

Edit 2: but really mostly only Abraham Lincoln. Eisenhower was pretty good too.

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21 minutes ago, TimB84 said:

Even GW Bush is palatable compared to what we have today.

I’m not going to name a list of names, it would quickly turn into a list of people who dared to disagree with a certain person. (But you get the point, that list includes every Republican nominee for President this century except for that person.)

Edit: also not saying I support any of them or would vote for them, but I could at least find common ground with most people who did before the divisions in this country became what they are today.

Oh boy, so much could be said in response to this.  But no use talking about a guy who didn't deal with covid and left office 12 years ago.

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5 minutes ago, Hoosier said:

Oh boy, so much could be said in response to this.  But no use talking about a guy who didn't deal with covid and left office 12 years ago.

True. I would also argue there’s no use talking about a guy who didn’t deal with covid and left office 12 weeks ago.

I’ll see myself out. :lol:

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Based on who has been vaccinated the most so far, you could make an argument that a vaccine passport is racist.  Others can make that argument if they want.  I mean, we still have a sizable chunk of white America that hasn't been vaccinated either.

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4 minutes ago, Hoosier said:

Based on who has been vaccinated the most so far, you could make an argument that a vaccine passport is racist.  Others can make that argument if they want.  I mean, we still have a sizable chunk of white America that hasn't been vaccinated either.

When vaccine passports become racist, we will have officially come full circle in politics. 

I was listening to a podcast last week (Jocko) that was making the argument that mob politics eventually burn themselves out because at some point even the leadership of the mob starts getting accused of whatever the mob is supporting. 

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14 minutes ago, Hoosier said:

Based on who has been vaccinated the most so far, you could make an argument that a vaccine passport is racist.  Others can make that argument if they want.  I mean, we still have a sizable chunk of white America that hasn't been vaccinated either.

Even for people who seem to be in favor of them, I think the consensus is you do not do it until everyone has actually had the opportunity to get one (domestically). Too many fairness issues to implement something like that currently. 

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5 minutes ago, OSUmetstud said:

Even for people who seem to be in favor of them, I think the consensus is you do not do it until everyone has actually had the opportunity to get one (domestically). Too many fairness issues to implement something like that currently. 

It's already starting though.  Was just reading a story yesterday about some places in Las Vegas.

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1 minute ago, Hoosier said:

It's already starting though.  Was just reading a story yesterday about some places in Las Vegas.

I think a "passport" though by definition would be something that is required for international travel, or for certain privileges at the federal level (access to airports or Amtrak trains, for example). Surely individual businesses should be able to decide if they will require proof of vaccination for entry, the same as they could flout shutdown orders or declare themselves "mask-free zones" in the name of running their business as they see fit?

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Just now, CheeselandSkies said:

I think a "passport" though by definition would be something that is required for international travel, or for certain privileges at the federal level (access to airports or Amtrak trains, for example). Surely individual businesses should be able to decide if they will require proof of vaccination for entry, the same as they could flout shutdown orders or declare themselves "mask-free zones" in the name of running their business as they see fit?

Yeah I don't think there's anything you can do about that. I'm more discussing when the government is involved. 

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Pfizer is eyeing full FDA approval pretty soon.

The pair’s mRNA vaccine is 91.3% effective against symptomatic COVID-19 disease as measured in people who have been immunized with the second dose of the shot for up to six months, the companies said Thursday.

The new efficacy data, plus a safety analysis comprising data from more than 12,000 people who were fully immunized for at least six months, allow the companies to file a drug application with the FDA to turn the shot’s emergency use authorization into a full approval, Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla, Ph.D., said in a statement.

The efficacy level is slightly down from the 95% number the vaccine first posted in the trial. With those data, Pfizer secured an FDA emergency use authorization in December. Since that initial analysis, more COVID-19 cases have accrued, increasing to 927 as of March 13 from the previous 170.

Of the total cases, investigators recorded 850 in the placebo group compared with 77 in the vaccine cohort. Thirty-two severe COVID-19 cases were recorded, all in the placebo group, translating into a 100% efficacy against severe disease for the vaccine.

https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/pfizer-biontech-eye-official-covid-19-vaccine-nod-as-efficacy-stands-strong-including

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Nothing new under the sun.

To slow the spread of the highly infectious and often deadly virus, there was a nationwide push for smallpox vaccination. In cities and states with the worst outbreaks, vaccination was compulsory and official certificates of vaccination were required to go to work, attend public school, ride trains or even go to the theater.

The mandatory vaccination orders angered many Americans who formed anti-vaccination leagues to defend their personal liberties. In an attempt to dodge public health officials, who went door-to-door (often with a police escort) to enforce vaccination laws, some anti-vaccination activists would forge certificates of vaccination. Unable to tell if certificates were legitimate, health officials fell back on physical evidence: they demanded to see a vaccination scar.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/news/vaccine-passports-smallpox-scar

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