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10 minutes ago, Jackstraw said:

  And OMG people may be socking it away because they don't know what's around the corner.  Paying off debt to reduce or eliminate bills in case it gets worse.   God forbid Americans cut their credit cards, increase their savings and stop borrowing money for things like snowmobiles.  When this first hit banks were getting jumpy because people were suddenly paying down credit card debt, were trying to increase their savings.  When I was a kid that was taught to me as being financially responsible.  This economy is a slave to debt.  I choose not to participate in that type of economy thank you very much.

I am the same way, but the American economy only does so well because the majority spend way beyond their means. My only debt is a 2.75% mortgage payment.

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10 hours ago, BuffaloWeather said:

I am the same way, but the American economy only does so well because the majority spend way beyond their means. My only debt is a 2.75% mortgage payment.

yup it's a double edged sword for me. My business has been booming ever since the PUA benefits kicked in and this is typically the slowest time of the year for me. Most of these people are probably up to their eyeballs in debt when they should actually be taking all that extra free money and using it to pay down their debts.

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13 hours ago, Stebo said:

Is there a need to have millions of options when we could have 100s of thousands? Again not every small business needs to survive, yes it is unfortunate but shit happens.

To be fair you've learned more than I could ever hope to in meteorology, but as an MBA I have to say you're missing the boat here. There is a need because the market demands it, that literally is how the system works. Businesses just don't randomly invest capital in places, they do so because there is a profitable demand for it based on forecasts. You say "shit happens" but that shit is people losing incomes, retirement packages, benefits & blight growing in our community due to a vacant building. This then depresses the local community & drives values down even more leading to a vicious cycle which is seen everyday in the Rust Belt. Worst of all those small businesses are anchored jobs that cannot be outsourced, which makes them incredibly valuable. For example lets say I have a car parts factory in Detroit, I can easily move it to Mexico, pay in labor & benefits about $25 an hour less & then just turn my Detroit factory into a distribution center where warehouse guys are paid $16 an hour. My profits will go up which allows me to underbid other suppliers and keep the contracts, while the American warehouse adds stability to my supply chain going to the OEM's. This simple example cannot be done with an electrician which pays incredibly well, but obviously I cannot move an electrician from Canton to Monterrey. 

We can argue all day what should be done, but honestly the economic impact here is similar to what New Orleans was going through on August 28th, 2005 when Hurricane Katrina was eyeing the area. It's just awful impending doom of a worse case scenario that brings nothing but dread. The economies of Illinois, Michigan & New York are not going to suffer from this, they will be destroyed. Literally what I am seeing now frightens me for the Northern states that are already disadvantaged by being union dominated. The flight to the Sun Belt has already been steady to avoid the high costs of union labor & contractors. 

The American economy's ruthless & lightly regulated nature will allow for a rebound, make no mistake. But the cost of these restrictive lockdowns from a dollars and cents category is almost unfathomable. I've been able to on average cut contractors rates by about 20% in Michigan without any resistance because there's just a complete lack of work. Yesterday I had a landscaper offer to do one of our facilities at half off if I would consider giving him work at a few of our sites in North Carolina as he is planning on closing up in Michigan and moving to the South to avoid going under. It's crazy the difference in conversations I have concerning Chicago & Detroit over Charlotte & Atlanta. Just almost two different economies at this point.

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2 minutes ago, nwohweather said:

To be fair you've learned more than I could ever hope to in meteorology, but as an MBA I have to say you're missing the boat here. There is a need because the market demands it, that literally is how the system works. Businesses just don't randomly invest capital in places, they do so because there is a profitable demand for it based on forecasts. You say "shit happens" but that shit is people losing incomes, retirement packages, benefits & blight growing in our community due to a vacant building. This then depresses the local community & drives values down even more leading to a vicious cycle which is seen everyday in the Rust Belt. Worst of all those small businesses are anchored jobs that cannot be outsourced, which makes them incredibly valuable. For example lets say I have a car parts factory in Detroit, I can easily move it to Mexico, pay in labor & benefits about $25 an hour less & then just turn my Detroit factory into a distribution center where warehouse guys are paid $16 an hour. My profits will go up which allows me to underbid other suppliers and keep the contracts, while the American warehouse adds stability to my supply chain going to the OEM's. This simple example cannot be done with an electrician which pays incredibly well, but obviously I cannot move an electrician from Canton to Monterrey. 

We can argue all day what should be done, but honestly the economic impact here is similar to what New Orleans was going through on August 28th, 2005 when Hurricane Katrina was eyeing the area. It's just awful impending doom of a worse case scenario that brings nothing but dread. The economies of Illinois, Michigan & New York are not going to suffer from this, they will be destroyed. Literally what I am seeing now frightens me for the Northern states that are already disadvantaged by being union dominated. The flight to the Sun Belt has already been steady to avoid the high costs of union labor & contractors. 

The American economy's ruthless & lightly regulated nature will allow for a rebound, make no mistake. But the cost of these restrictive lockdowns from a dollars and cents category is almost unfathomable. I've been able to on average cut contractors rates by about 20% in Michigan without any resistance because there's just a complete lack of work. Yesterday I had a landscaper offer to do one of our facilities at half off if I would consider giving him work at a few of our sites in North Carolina as he is planning on closing up in Michigan and moving to the South to avoid going under. It's crazy the difference in conversations I have concerning Chicago & Detroit over Charlotte & Atlanta. Just almost two different economies at this point.

All you economists have no answers for what we should do other than opening everything up and hoping we don't kill millions. Sorry but that is about as irrational as can be, guess what when millions get sick how many people will be working or buying shit? You can bluster all you want about the economy but that doesn't matter with how many are getting sick and dying.

Also nice shot at unions in there, guess where we would be if we didn't have unions throughout history. All it is, is profit over anything with you people. Who cares how much you stomp out the little guy as long as we make the absolute most money possible.

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lol @ the Wisconsin quarantine order for Chicago.

Good luck with that one.


.

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1 hour ago, chances14 said:

yup it's a double edged sword for me. My business has been booming ever since the PUA benefits kicked in and this is typically the slowest time of the year for me. Most of these people are probably up to their eyeballs in debt when they should actually be taking all that extra free money and using it to pay down their debts.

We're selling lobster and crab like it's going out of style lately.

Not the kind of purchase that's responsible for people on a fixed budget. 

But... that's not going to stop me from selling it to them.

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23 minutes ago, Stebo said:

All you economists have no answers for what we should do other than opening everything up and hoping we don't kill millions. Sorry but that is about as irrational as can be, guess what when millions get sick how many people will be working or buying shit? You can bluster all you want about the economy but that doesn't matter with how many are getting sick and dying.

Also nice shot at unions in there, guess where we would be if we didn't have unions throughout history. All it is, is profit over anything with you people. Who cares how much you stomp out the little guy as long as we make the absolute most money possible.

This is exactly it, it’s going to take a hit anyways with everyone getting sick and seeing people they know pass away.

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30 minutes ago, nwohweather said:

To be fair you've learned more than I could ever hope to in meteorology, but as an MBA I have to say you're missing the boat here. There is a need because the market demands it, that literally is how the system works. Businesses just don't randomly invest capital in places, they do so because there is a profitable demand for it based on forecasts. You say "shit happens" but that shit is people losing incomes, retirement packages, benefits & blight growing in our community due to a vacant building. This then depresses the local community & drives values down even more leading to a vicious cycle which is seen everyday in the Rust Belt. Worst of all those small businesses are anchored jobs that cannot be outsourced, which makes them incredibly valuable. For example lets say I have a car parts factory in Detroit, I can easily move it to Mexico, pay in labor & benefits about $25 an hour less & then just turn my Detroit factory into a distribution center where warehouse guys are paid $16 an hour. My profits will go up which allows me to underbid other suppliers and keep the contracts, while the American warehouse adds stability to my supply chain going to the OEM's. This simple example cannot be done with an electrician which pays incredibly well, but obviously I cannot move an electrician from Canton to Monterrey. 

We can argue all day what should be done, but honestly the economic impact here is similar to what New Orleans was going through on August 28th, 2005 when Hurricane Katrina was eyeing the area. It's just awful impending doom of a worse case scenario that brings nothing but dread. The economies of Illinois, Michigan & New York are not going to suffer from this, they will be destroyed. Literally what I am seeing now frightens me for the Northern states that are already disadvantaged by being union dominated. The flight to the Sun Belt has already been steady to avoid the high costs of union labor & contractors. 

The American economy's ruthless & lightly regulated nature will allow for a rebound, make no mistake. But the cost of these restrictive lockdowns from a dollars and cents category is almost unfathomable. I've been able to on average cut contractors rates by about 20% in Michigan without any resistance because there's just a complete lack of work. Yesterday I had a landscaper offer to do one of our facilities at half off if I would consider giving him work at a few of our sites in North Carolina as he is planning on closing up in Michigan and moving to the South to avoid going under. It's crazy the difference in conversations I have concerning Chicago & Detroit over Charlotte & Atlanta. Just almost two different economies at this point.

 

What can I help you with today? Mortgage, a box of cereal, how about a super low price on your future casket?

latest?cb=20140422140826

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Just now, Wmsptwx said:

This is exactly it, it’s going to take a hit anyways with everyone getting sick and seeing people they know pass away.

I have never met anyone who has met anyone with COVID.

We would have to play a version of 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon to find the link.

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3 minutes ago, Jonger said:

I have never met anyone who has met anyone with COVID.

We would have to play a version of 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon to find the link.

I’ve known several and had guy from our trout fishing cabin pass away from it. Guess it’s all about your own experiences.

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44 minutes ago, Stebo said:

All you economists have no answers for what we should do other than opening everything up and hoping we don't kill millions. Sorry but that is about as irrational as can be, guess what when millions get sick how many people will be working or buying shit? You can bluster all you want about the economy but that doesn't matter with how many are getting sick and dying.

Also nice shot at unions in there, guess where we would be if we didn't have unions throughout history. All it is, is profit over anything with you people. Who cares how much you stomp out the little guy as long as we make the absolute most money possible.

I don't make policy decisions, I just explain the economic ramifications of what is happening. Lol other people can make those decisions accordingly. 

You have to realize money has no eyes, has no heart, has no soul. You're right though, it is profit over anything. You're taking this personally, and business isn't about emotion, it's about being good. I don't really care about what unions did previously, I care how I can beat their high labor costs & hard protections of employees. Luckily for our company, customers and shareholders I almost always win

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7 hours ago, A-L-E-K said:

Money is fake you goobers 

Let's see how fake it is when I try to pay my mortgage with monopoly money.

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Just now, Wmsptwx said:

But a recent study of 100 recovered coronavirus patients reveals 78 of them now have lasting cardiovascular damage even though a vast majority of them had mild cases of COVID-19 in the first place.

If you have looked into the typical symptomatic patient, it would shock me to find they aren't already walking around with cardiovascular damage as it is.

That's the thing with diabetes. It's not the diabetes itself that raises your risk of dying or having symptoms, it's the DAMAGE inflicted from the diabetes over the years that causes susceptibility.  Heightened blood sugar causes inflammation in your blood vessels and that damages nerves. My sister-in-law has RAGING type 2 diabetes.... commonly walking around with 450 mg/dl every day of her life. She spends the majority of her life recovering or weathering infections. She's 450 lbs and 5' 6''. She would probably perish from COVID-19.

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11 minutes ago, Jonger said:

But a recent study of 100 recovered coronavirus patients reveals 78 of them now have lasting cardiovascular damage even though a vast majority of them had mild cases of COVID-19 in the first place.

If you have looked into the typical symptomatic patient, it would shock me to find they aren't already walking around with cardiovascular damage as it is.

That's the thing with diabetes. It's not the diabetes itself that raises your risk of dying or having symptoms, it's the DAMAGE inflicted from the diabetes over the years that causes susceptibility.  Heightened blood sugar causes inflammation in your blood vessels and that damages nerves. My sister-in-law has RAGING type 2 diabetes.... commonly walking around with 450 mg/dl every day of her life. She spends the majority of her life recovering or weathering infections. She's 450 lbs and 5' 6''. She would probably perish from COVID-19.

Average BMI in that study was 25.

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1 minute ago, madwx said:

Average BMI in that study was 25.

Key word -- recovered.

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1 minute ago, Jonger said:

Key word -- recovered.

80% of middle aged people had lasting cardiovascular damage, their average BMI was 25.  We don't know if this damage will go away with time and viruses usually do cause some short term cardiovascular damage but the damage from Covid is lasting longer than other diseases.

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Covid has simply accelerated business closures that were going to happen anyway.  Businesses also need to learn how to manage their money better.  Frankly I think any company that used their profits to buy back their stock should get no help.  Let them wallow in the wake of their poor short term decisions.

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17 minutes ago, Inverted_Trough said:

Covid has simply accelerated business closures that were going to happen anyway.  Businesses also need to learn how to manage their money better.  Frankly I think any company that used their profits to buy back their stock should get no help.  Let them wallow in the wake of their poor short term decisions.

The issue you run into there is with the "too big to fail" companies.

Philosophically, I agree that companies such as Delta, American and United don't deserve a bailout. But I also don't think the solution is to let them collapse and potentially put millions of jobs at risk, in addition to harming country's transportation infrastructure. 

At least with the route we went, *SOME* jobs will be saved and the infrastructure in place will remain relatively in tact. 

If done right, bailouts can work. See the auto industry for example. 

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17 minutes ago, Inverted_Trough said:

Covid has simply accelerated business closures that were going to happen anyway.  Businesses also need to learn how to manage their money better.  Frankly I think any company that used their profits to buy back their stock should get no help.  Let them wallow in the wake of their poor short term decisions.

Nah the hospitality & airline industry was doing just fine until March. Honestly the bigger issue with this is that a lot of those jobs are "unskilled" and were typical fall back positions during previous downturns. Sure you lost your job but you can now go be a waitress or something. But goodness people in things like hotels & restaurants and their owners are being killed here. That's where this gets bad, you can't fall back onto service industry jobs because they don't exist due to this. That's where this becomes a pit of doom truly. 

The reason the airline industry is so so so so key is because of its demand for planes. The amount of manufacturing tied up in defense & aerospace is absurd and dwarfs that of the auto industry. If you have your airlines go under we have a real serious problem.

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23 minutes ago, Inverted_Trough said:

Covid has simply accelerated business closures that were going to happen anyway.  Businesses also need to learn how to manage their money better.  Frankly I think any company that used their profits to buy back their stock should get no help.  Let them wallow in the wake of their poor short term decisions.

I'm going to need a link to this claim.

Here's an important bit of info.

Restaurants, gyms, bars, yoga studios... etc.

They might be closed right now and you won't know who's really down for the count until we re-open these businesses. 

The employees they laid off or let go are currently sitting at home making as much as 2X what they were making while those companies are never going to re-open.

The impact on the economy is actually positive right now. For now.

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2 hours ago, madwx said:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768916

60% of middle aged people had cardiac inflammation after getting COVID.  20% with pericardial effusion.  Average BMI 25.  

Fun.  Fun fun fun.

Concerning, but in all fairness, this is one of those things that will need years of study and research to determine to what extent Covid might affect the heart. Taking Covid out of the equation, some middle aged people who have no apparent underlying conditions and have a normal BMI will most likely display some form of a heart irregularity or inflammation without even knowing it. Also, having a normal BMI can be meaningless when determining how healthy a person and their heart is. A man can weigh 400 pounds but only be 8% body fat and be considered morbidly obese going by the BMI scale. One would have to see these peoples hearts before having had Covid to determine if Covid is to blame. Many infections will show inflammation in the major organs of the body for a time period after the infection. I'm not trying to undermine the seriousness of Covid, but this is one those fear-mongering articles that should not be published until thorough, long-term research has been done.

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Well, consolidation and monopolization that has occurred since the 1970s has created businesses that are "too big to fail".  You can thank the University of Chicago "intellectual" economists for instilling the belief that business consolidation is good because it's "efficient".  Make no mistake:  The system we have today is by design.  

Bailouts are sometimes necessary but the problem is that there should be conditions placed upon the acceptance of that money.  For example, if you accept a bailout, then for the next five years you are not allowed to spend a single penny buying back your own stock.  If you don't like those conditions, then don't accept the bailout.  

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Just now, ovweather said:

Concerning, but in all fairness, this is one of those things that will need years of study and research to determine to what extent Covid might affect the heart. Taking Covid out of the equation, some middle aged people who have no apparent underlying conditions and have a normal BMI will most likely display some form of a heart irregularity or inflammation without even knowing it. Also, having a normal BMI can be meaningless when determining how healthy a person and their heart is. A man can weigh 400 pounds but only be 8% body fat and be considered morbidly obese going by the BMI scale. One would have to see these peoples hearts before having had Covid to determine if Covid is to blame. Many infections will show inflammation in the major organs of the body for a time period after the infection. I'm not trying to undermine the seriousness of Covid, but this is one those fear-mongering articles that should not be published until thorough, long-term research has been done.

And the other thing, any illness can/does affect the heart. My grandmother died after getting a cold in 2007. That "cold" was almost certainly a virus or bacterial infection with a proper scientific name. Nobody cared back in 2007 about pathogen specifics, but in 2020 you better bet your butt they would/

 

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Just now, Inverted_Trough said:

Well, consolidation and monopolization that has occurred since the 1970s has created businesses that are "too big to fail".  You can thank the University of Chicago "intellectual" economists for instilling the belief that business consolidation is good because it's "efficient".  Make no mistake:  The system we have today is by design.  

Bailouts are sometimes necessary but the problem is that there should be conditions placed upon the acceptance of that money.  For example, if you accept a bailout, then for the next five years you are not allowed to spend a single penny buying back your own stock.  If you don't like those conditions, then don't accept the bailout.  

Too big to fail means that the company is so intertwined into the economy that closing it down would cause more damage than propping it up.

I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it's the reality of 21st century economics.

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