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Baroclinic Zone

January 16 2021 - Inland runner Rain/Snow/Wind

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46 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Yeah hard to say but those Woodford observers have been around forever.  They were there when I was a kid, they report to the WeatherNet 6 (CBS news out of Albany)... I always remember their location as 2,400ft TOP OF HILL (always in caps lock, ha).

Definitely might be weenie-ish but they’ve been around for decades reporting snow up there.  The only reason I get skeptical is the fact that it was an even two feet.  I’d rather see like 23” or 23.5” ..something that doesn’t sound like it was mailed in (there looks like two feet out there!).

Either way, growing up skiing at Mt Snow I often felt like that high part of RT 9 there in Woodford had deeper snowpack than the actual ski area lol.

It's too bad they don't keep a running tally for seasonal totals on Weathernet--would be interesting to see the seasonal Woodford totals(and other spots too--like those high spots in the Catskills) In 17-18 Woodford probably reported 230-250".  The upslope there is the real deal though--the radar is always totally lit up from Glastenbury Mtn down through Woodford.  They do better than any SVT resort in that aspect IMO.  As mentioned multiple times, little suspect of some of the totals myself at times--but like Mitch said cant say there not accurate unless someone outside party is verifying.

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58 minutes ago, wxmanmitch said:

I'm actually about 5 miles to the SE of Woodford center, but on the same ridge at about the same elevation. The person who measures there is on the east side of the town at exactly my longitude (4.5 miles due north of my spot). They are sometimes too high while other times reasonable. Woodford reported a 24" two day total yesterday while I had 17", which seems like a rather large difference given the small distance and roughly same elevation (2300' vs. my 2,230'). It's conceivable that they may have had a little more than I did (perhaps 18 to 20") but I find it somewhat hard to believe that there was that large of a difference without some type of mesoscale snow band evident on radar to account for it. But without going up there to poke around and measure myself, I will give them the benefit of the doubt since it is an extremely snowy place. 

Anyway, enough of scrutinizing Woodford's total since snow measuring is not an exact science. I had another 3.1" from upslope overnight last night and into today. Three day total is now 20.1" with a depth of 20.5". 

Yesterday driving from Dutch Hill base area on 100 up Rt 8 to Rt 9 near Searsburg, it appeared as though there was a couple inches more in Searsburg but not 6 or 7 more , and it was snowing a bit harder at that time than when I left Dutch.  Temp dropped as low as 26 and travel was a bit dicey in spots with the blowing snow even though roads were plowed and treated. 

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28 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

I’ve always wondered how much snow would be measured if someone was up in the Glastonbury wilderness NNW of Woodford in those 3000+ foot peaks. Like that would be an amazing spot for a ski resort. The terrain there looks insane for upslope. I feel like they’d easily get over 200” per year there but there is nobody there to measure it. Lol. 

Yes, we talked about exact thing in the ski thread a few weeks back.  There is just nothing there at all and no access, someone had mentioned the Woodford snowmobile club ventures up there I think.  The upslope on radar is ridiculous in Glastenbury (for SVT standards)--every event seems to light up right over that area.  The meso models sure do love that spot--every event, no matter the wind direction, bullseye's that area--lol.

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1 minute ago, backedgeapproaching said:

Yes, we talked about exact thing in the ski thread a few weeks back.  There is just nothing there at all and no access, someone had mentioned the Woodford snowmobile club ventures up there I think.  The upslope on radar is ridiculous in Glastenbury (for SVT standards)--every event seems to light up right over that area.  The meso models sure do love that spot--every event, no matter the wind direction, bulleye's that area--lol.

There is a snowmobile trail up to the fire tower on Glastonbury Mt. I hope to ride sow there this year at some point. 

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36 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

I’ve always wondered how much snow would be measured if someone was up in the Glastonbury wilderness NNW of Woodford in those 3000+ foot peaks. Like that would be an amazing spot for a ski resort. The terrain there looks insane for upslope. I feel like they’d easily get over 200” per year there but there is nobody there to measure it. Lol. 

Probably need to use NOHRSC for the best estimate on that since it’s using the satellite derived water content. The Stratton area has a higher SWE right now.

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11 minutes ago, backedgeapproaching said:

Nice, bring a yard stick--or two. We need some verification...ha.

When was your highest depth in the last 15 or so years?

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2 minutes ago, dendrite said:

When was your highest depth in the last 15 or so years?

I've only been here since 2014.  30" in FEB 2015 and 30" in March 2018.  Oh, and I guess 30" DEC 2020 too.  But, not a great retention area on the Western slopes.

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4 minutes ago, backedgeapproaching said:

I've only been here since 2014.  30" in FEB 2015 and 30" in March 2018.  Oh, and I guess 30" DEC 2020 too.  But, not a great retention area on the Western slopes.

Yeah it seems like Stratton is consistently higher in the SWE dept...at least when it comes to remote sensing.

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Just now, dendrite said:

Yeah it seems like Stratton is consistently higher in the SWE dept...at least when it comes to remote sensing.

Ok, so you think because Glastenbury is getting more of the fake upslope that the depth's may not be as impressive?

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5 minutes ago, backedgeapproaching said:

Ok, so you think because Glastenbury is getting more of the fake upslope that the depth's may not be as impressive?

I’m just estimating the amount of snow via the snow water equiv. If Glastenbury is getting a lot more upslope than Stratton then yeah, the seasonal snowfall may be underestimated...especially if you had someone diligent like jspin measuring every 6-8 hours. There’s that little notch where winds can converge on Stratton with W flow though (by your area). Can you recall any good upslope storms around there where everyone started with little snow?

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9 minutes ago, dendrite said:

Yeah it seems like Stratton is consistently higher in the SWE dept...at least when it comes to remote sensing.

Where are you looking for the SWE? This isn't very zoomed in, but  looks pretty similar, if anything maybe a different shade of pink for Glastenbury? 

nsm_swe_2018032005_Northeast.jpg

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8 minutes ago, dendrite said:

I’m just estimating the amount of snow via the snow water equiv. If Glastenbury is getting a lot more upslope than Stratton then yeah, the seasonal snowfall may be underestimated...especially if you had someone diligent like jspin measuring every 6-8 hours. There’s that little notch where winds can converge on Stratton with W flow though (by your area). Can you recall any good upslope storms around there where everyone started with little snow?

Hmm, would need to think about that.  

Oh, just off the top of my head  one that may work--  NOV 2016 upslope storm was pretty big.  Don't remember the exact dates or what was on the ground, but probably not much since it was NOV.   Think Woodford had like 3ft from that.

 

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6 minutes ago, backedgeapproaching said:

Where are you looking for the SWE? This isn't very zoomed in, but  looks pretty similar, if anything maybe a different shade of pink for Glastenbury? 

nsm_swe_2018032005_Northeast.jpg

Yeah that day is close. I was just picking a few random days in the months you provided.

83406029-5C07-45F5-8D46-202D3A45C71B.jpeg

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That’s interesting that Stratton might be similar or even better for W.E. I wonder if Stratton really rakes it in more in synoptic storms and then is only marginally worse in upslope? That would help explain the W.E. differences. 

One thing to keep a note in...Stratton has trails going around a good portion of the mountain so I wonder how much snow making contamination is in the NORHC maps? Something to consider too. 

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9 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

That’s interesting that Stratton might be similar or even better for W.E. I wonder if Stratton really rakes it in more in synoptic storms and then is only marginally worse in upslope? That would help explain the W.E. differences. 

One thing to keep a note in...Stratton has trails going around a good portion of the mountain so I wonder how much snow making contamination is in the NORHC maps? Something to consider too. 

Stratton has some of the highest elevation condos.

2440’ I believe last time I went on a weenie Drive there 

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10 minutes ago, STILL N OF PIKE said:

Stratton has some of the highest elevation condos.

2440’ I believe last time I went on a weenie Drive there 

They have them up around 2600 actually. I think they are more like million dollar houses, lol...but they are really high. I’ve looked before. 

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41 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

That’s interesting that Stratton might be similar or even better for W.E. I wonder if Stratton really rakes it in more in synoptic storms and then is only marginally worse in upslope? That would help explain the W.E. differences. 

One thing to keep a note in...Stratton has trails going around a good portion of the mountain so I wonder how much snow making contamination is in the NORHC maps? Something to consider too. 

Good question on the man-made snow too.

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26 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

That’s interesting that Stratton might be similar or even better for W.E. I wonder if Stratton really rakes it in more in synoptic storms and then is only marginally worse in upslope? That would help explain the W.E. differences. 

One thing to keep a note in...Stratton has trails going around a good portion of the mountain so I wonder how much snow making contamination is in the NORHC maps? Something to consider too. 

Stratton can do OK in upslope, I really don't think they are on the same level as Woodford and Glastenbury.  Stratton will struggle a little more in blocked flow upslope while Glastenbury/Woodford clean up, they also clean up unblocked as well.  I've been up there a few times after upslope events and never seems like "wow, they got crushed". Synoptic storms, yes, they do really well normally as would be expected.

Interesting about the snow making contamination-could be a factor.

Here is an example of the Nov 2016 upslope storm I was talking about.  This was purely upslope IIRC, but also a very blocked flow one too I believe.  Woodford had 26", Stratton area 9" looking at that map. (ALY has the Woodford area shaded too far east on the map--they always do for some reason-so bump that really dark shading over west a bit.)

NOV_20-22_2016_Snow.png

 

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26 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

They have them up around 2600 actually. I think they are more like million dollar houses, lol...but they are really high. I’ve looked before. 

I’m not that familiar with Stratton, but I remember a couple years ago riding on of the lifts on the left side of the mountain in a more beginner area and seeing some ridiculous houses along the trail.  They looked like giant single families and had to be million dollar houses.  Most had ridiculous fire pits and hot tubs outside too if a remember.

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4 minutes ago, bwt3650 said:

I’m not that familiar with Stratton, but I remember a couple years ago riding on of the lifts on the left side of the mountain in a more beginner area and seeing some ridiculous houses along the trail.  They looked like giant single families and had to be million dollar houses.  Most had ridiculous fire pits and hot tubs outside too if a remember.

Single family are mutli-million for sure.  Even the twin townhouses slope side are 7 figures.

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37 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

They have them up around 2600 actually. I think they are more like million dollar houses, lol...but they are really high. I’ve looked before. 

If so, they’ve been there a long time. Development above 2500’ is really restricted. A few years ago a house in W. Dover was ordered to be torn down because they ignored that rule. I can’t remember all the details or find a link but I do remember it. I’m not sure what happened with the appeal or if it actually got demolished. 

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Yeah I think we need to investigate the man-made snow contamination aspect of the W.E maps. I’ve been looking at several maps this evening from different dates and notice the peak itself really sticks out like a sore thumb....I know that any elevation is going to stick out but it seems pretty zonked. 

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6 minutes ago, mreaves said:

If so, they’ve been there a long time. Development above 2500’ is really restricted. A few years ago a house in W. Dover was ordered to be torn down because they ignored that rule. I can’t remember all the details or find a link but I do remember it. I’m not sure what happened with the appeal or if it actually got demolished. 

They must have gotten some kind of waiver. Check out “west ridge road” up on Stratton. 

The entire thing is above 2500 feet with some spots above 2600. 

 

 

F26D4A2B-3922-4BFF-A67B-B61F6B556E8D.jpeg

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8 minutes ago, mreaves said:

If so, they’ve been there a long time. Development above 2500’ is really restricted. A few years ago a house in W. Dover was ordered to be torn down because they ignored that rule. I can’t remember all the details or find a link but I do remember it. I’m not sure what happened with the appeal or if it actually got demolished. 

Grandfathered in?

20210118_213743.thumb.jpg.b2d99c42c02d8f4b4268821b0944bf39.jpg

 

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36 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

They must have gotten some kind of waiver. Check out “west ridge road” up on Stratton. 

The entire thing is above 2500 feet with some spots above 2600. 

 

 

F26D4A2B-3922-4BFF-A67B-B61F6B556E8D.jpeg

 

36 minutes ago, backedgeapproaching said:

Grandfathered in?

20210118_213743.thumb.jpg.b2d99c42c02d8f4b4268821b0944bf39.jpg

 

 

33 minutes ago, backedgeapproaching said:

Yea, they would have to bulldoze that whole neighborhood.

I guess I should have said that permits for construction above 2500’ have to go through Act 250 and are usually subject to tough standards. It is very possible that the incident I was thinking about was the result of someone building without Environmental District review. 

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9 hours ago, backedgeapproaching said:

Stratton can do OK in upslope, I really don't think they are on the same level as Woodford and Glastenbury.  Stratton will struggle a little more in blocked flow upslope while Glastenbury/Woodford clean up, they also clean up unblocked as well.  I've been up there a few times after upslope events and never seems like "wow, they got crushed". Synoptic storms, yes, they do really well normally as would be expected.

Interesting about the snow making contamination-could be a factor.

Here is an example of the Nov 2016 upslope storm I was talking about.  This was purely upslope IIRC, but also a very blocked flow one too I believe.  Woodford had 26", Stratton area 9" looking at that map. (ALY has the Woodford area shaded too far east on the map--they always do for some reason-so bump that really dark shading over west a bit.)

NOV_20-22_2016_Snow.png

 

Sweet conversation I always love learning more about that region as it one of the coolest micro-climates in the area. I mentioned a few weeks back about the Woodford snowmobile club Having some trails back into the higher Glastenbury terrain. I Remember I skied Stratton on March 14th 2018. It was a phenomenal day and snow depths were very impressive throughout the whole region. This day in particular I remember the Northwest flow upslope was supposed to be cranking in the area... but not at Stratton. Lighter snow all day but not significant accumulations. I took the weenie drive home to New York down through Woodford instead of Manchester. I came down the Southeast side of Stratton. Beautiful homes in there. I reached rt-100 and the 2400’ section before dipping down to mount snow base area and they had some crazy piles near that pass and excavators plowing driveways but their still wasn’t much upslope snow. The snow pack decreases as you head down towards mount snow and then Wilmington. Once I got to Rt-9, passing through Searsburg and reached woodford, no surprise the snow was cranking. It happened so suddenly. I remember my friend and I passed the empty prospect mountain parking lot and turned around to go have some fun and spin a few donuts lol. Half of it was plowed but the other half probably had 3+ft of snow just from the recent storm. We of course managed to beach the Jeep in it for a few minutes while it was almost a white out. Fun times. The snow pack in that area was awesome probably the most I’ve ever seen in a northeast residential area 5-6ft easy. Also you mentioned how mesos always jackpot that area and I would like to believe that as accurate as it is so consistent and shows the sharp eastern cutoff. So long story short I really don’t think it would be a stretch to say that the 3000-3800 area on Glastenbury averages significantly more snow than both Stratton and Mount Snow which seem to be just a few miles too Far East for the best snows based on what you see in Woodford. Others who live in that region have great input about the terrain and microclimates and I always appreciate their great input. That place truly has to be one of the snowiest live-able places in New England and definitely the snowiest that is fairly close to the coast. They’re positioned so well for monster storms and seem to get huge dumps more frequently than basically anywhere. A few 2 foot storms every year and a 3 foot+ storm or better every other year. Truly a weenie heaven that place is. 

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When I was up at Stratton last year I was on the highest road possible , there were 2 properties next to a 100 yards of wooded area that led to a slope . May have been close to 2600’ but definitely wasn’t over it. I had my ski tracks app on and was trying to find the highest property. 

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