Baroclinic Zone Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 The cool thing about the EF Scale (that drives many people nuts) is that it's a moving target. It is constantly being improved upon, and one of the major initiatives is to include more science in the tree damage indicators. Elms differ in strength from oaks, and white pine from fir, etc. It isn't as cut and dry and hardwood/softwood. Likewise, we're always finding new damage indicators to include. Does the NWS consult with specialists when it comes to assessing damage or do they strictly rely on in-house staff to make that determination? I'm certainly not a tree specialist but I do know that trees have varying densities and hardnesses and as Eek said will become stronger in the prevailing winds but when a strong enough wind comes in an other direction they'll break readily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanStWx Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Do you happen to know what species of pine that number was based on? White pines are amazing... they can take a lot of wind if it comes from the dominant direction, but if comes from the opposite direction, they shed branches as if they were only held on by velcro. I vividly remember hurricane bob had a couple random gusts from the east (probably 40mph?) that stripped probably a 1/3rd of the limbs off of one pine at the end of a clump. Same group of pines was unbothered by my 55mph gust a few years ago. (82.5MPH in BCI units) I'm sure there is documentation out there, but I personally have no knowledge of if that was an individual species or an average of multiple (which is my guess). I do agree with your assessment regarding prevailing wind versus "freak" directions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT Rain Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 The cool thing about the EF Scale (that drives many people nuts) is that it's a moving target. It is constantly being improved upon, and one of the major initiatives is to include more science in the tree damage indicators. Elms differ in strength from oaks, and white pine from fir, etc. It isn't as cut and dry and hardwood/softwood. Likewise, we're always finding new damage indicators to include. That's really cool, Chris. I think you're right that that's a huge strength of the EF scale. Soon you guys will need to be arborists to assign EF values lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanStWx Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Does the NWS consult with specialists when it comes to assessing damage or do they strictly rely on in-house staff to make that determination? I'm certainly not a tree specialist but I do know that trees have varying densities and hardnesses and as Eek said will become stronger in the prevailing winds but when a strong enough wind comes in an other direction they'll break readily. Absolutely they do, especially with the EF Scale wind estimates. For the surveys themselves, unless there is reason to believe it was greater than EF3 there usually isn't any sort of structural specialist (engineering or otherwise) along for the ride, unless you're in Oklahoma, Kansas, or Texas near their research labs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Absolutely they do, especially with the EF Scale wind estimates. For the surveys themselves, unless there is reason to believe it was greater than EF3 there usually isn't any sort of structural specialist (engineering or otherwise) along for the ride, unless you're in Oklahoma, Kansas, or Texas near their research labs. I did a graduate paper on forest blowdown in 1993, remember this paper thoughTopography: Topographic exposure has been shown to have major effects on wind damage at the landscape scale. In a Jamaican forest Bellingham (1991) found higher damage on southern slopes and ridge crests that were exposed to the hurricane-face winds, while minor damage occurred on protected northern slopes. Boose and others (1992) found a similar pattern of hurricane damage in New England, USA; higher damage occurred on southwestern slopes exposed to the hurricane winds, whereas minor damage occurred in a protected deep valley. They concluded that topographic exposure, combined with wind intensity and forest stand attributes, could largely explain damage patterns at landscape scale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey2002 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Just an unreal swath of damage... I drew the lines because you can really see on this angle how the trees seem to go from untouched, to leveled, to untouched again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HIPPYVALLEY Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I'll be in Easthampton tomorrow. If Mt Road is open again I will get some pictures. Pretty amazing damges pics. Mt Tom comes up like a wall so the microclimate was certainly a factor in that swath of damge. Cool stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbutts Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 There is a lot that goes into wind speeds, but 150 will leave nothing behind really..esp pine and hardwood. Highly doubt it was that strong. Could have been 100-120 or so. Yeah, I'm basing my thinking on checking the damage in Punta Gorda, FL after 140-170 gusts (NWS/Measured) and while the area was absolutely devastated, it wasn't complete mowage like the Mt. Tom. New England trees are certainly less able to stand up to wind so that's a factor for sure. I'm probably unlikely to out-guess the experts on this one. I don't know though still, that Mt. Tom damage is amazing all in one gust. I wish there was an instrument there to record it. edit, I remembered after posting seeing an area that was exposed to the harbor where there was complete damage to all the trees. Probably exposure makes a big difference and explains the sporadic damage I was mentioning above away from the water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewbeer Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I'll be in Easthampton tomorrow. If Mt Road is open again I will get some pictures. Projected to open about noon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eekuasepinniW Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 God I wish I had been there. I need to know what it sounded like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalcottWx Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 God I wish I had been there. I need to know what it sounded like.probably like the scene in shutter island when they hide in the cemetary during the storm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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