2026-2027 Record-breaking El Nino

[Prismshine Productions]

Yea, someone in the New England forum was trying to tell me were going to have a -PNA this winter...I was like, find a super El Niño that pulled that off.
-AO/+PNA means you can essentially eliminate the bottom dwelling seasons....even 1972 didn't. Now, maybe it will be bootleg, etc...but the season will average +PNA in the DJFM mean.
 

That was on me for not paying attention to the height lines

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[Stormchaserchuck1]

3 hours ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

Yea, someone in the New England forum was trying to tell me were going to have a -PNA this winter...I was like, find a super El Niño that pulled that off.

-AO/+PNA means you can essentially eliminate the bottom dwelling seasons....even 1972 didn't. Now, maybe it will be bootleg, etc...but the season will average +PNA in the DJFM mean.

 

How funny would it be if we average +PNA in the seasonal mean, stemming from similarities in the arctic domain and not necessarily the equator. Just about everyone would miss it, assuming it's ENSO.

[GaWx]

This is the first time I recall seeing the white shading, which is warmer than a +5C anomaly, on the TAO surface maps. It is within the E section, in a narrow corridor just S of the equator and E of 110W.

 

[40/70 Benchmark]

7 hours ago, Stormchaserchuck1 said:

Looks like 9/2 is ~+0.40... should come in ~-0.10 for MJJAS. That would actually be our 2nd lowest NAO Winter in 14 years (CPC). I'll take the over on that (CPC), although there could be some ridging around 80-90N. 

My interpretation of that is volatility.....biased + first half, neutralish to perhaps even somewhat negative second half.....but AO should be negative.

[40/70 Benchmark]

7 hours ago, Prismshine Productions said:

That was on me for not paying attention to the height lines

Sent from my SM-S176V using Tapatalk
 

Were you predicting -PNA for the season, though? What you are referring to is simply misinterpretation of a seasonal chart....I recall someone was telling me that the PNA would average negative. Anyway, NBD...I wasn't trying to call anyone out.

[40/70 Benchmark]

6 hours ago, Stormchaserchuck1 said:

How funny would it be if we average +PNA in the seasonal mean, stemming from similarities in the arctic domain and not necessarily the equator. Just about everyone would miss it, assuming it's ENSO.

What do you mean, a ridge extending down from the arctic through the west coast, rather than a more traidtional, El Nino-forced PNA ridge?

[Typhoon Tip]

1 hour ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

What do you mean, a ridge extending down from the arctic through the west coast, rather than a more traidtional, El Nino-forced PNA ridge?

Not part of the conversation's immediate history here but...   the EPO and PNA can sometimes be in the -EPO/+PNA tandem. 

When extreme enough, and fully physically realized on the actual hemispheric synoptic layout out, this results in the "cross polar flow" type.  This is synonymous with a deep layer cold conveyor that patterns from Siberia, across the (pre-CC explosion era) frozen expanse Arctic Ocean, down over and usually E of the Canadian Rockies ... into the NP and ultimately frosting oranges in Florida.

It's important to context that the longer term moment correlation between these indices is actually modestly positive.  So having a tandem -EPO/+PNA should be rarer than the means, and well ... we don't actually observe a bona fide Cross Polar Flow set up so often and there we go... 

As an aside, when time lags are applied to the indices, I'm not sure ( though suspect it is so - ) if there is a better negative correlation that is exposed.  Because I have observed countless times over 30 years of this crap, a -EPO --> +PNA over an ~ 3-5 day lapse. A time in which the EPO relaxes back to neutral aft of a +d(PNA).  It gives the allusion if not physical exposure of a planetary wave roll out of the N. Pacific.  This is not the same as cross polar flow. More like a "relay".  It's the more common type and regulates the periodicity of cold loading events into Canada.  For regions between the NP/GL-NE drape, the difference between a CPF hemisphere, vs this latter delivery, is probably less than meaningfully different - both showcase someone heaving a boiling cup of water to demo saturation vapor pressure causing half of it to explode into vapor, while the other half rings to the ground like shattered stemware.  Maybe the CPF is 7 deg colder in the core of the cold extreme or something but below -10 F either way, wtf cares...  

Just sayn' ...

[40/70 Benchmark]

5 minutes ago, Typhoon Tip said:

Not part of the conversation's immediate history here but...   the EPO and PNA can sometimes be in the -EPO/+PNA tandem. 

When extreme enough, and fully physically realized on the actual hemispheric synoptic layout out, this results in the "cross polar flow" type.  This is synonymous with a deep layer cold conveyor that patterns from Siberia, across the (pre-CC explosion era) frozen expanse Arctic Ocean, down over and usually E of the Canadian Rockies ... into the NP and ultimately frosting oranges in Florida.

It's important to context that the longer term moment correlation between these indices is actually modestly positive.  So having a tandem -EPO/+PNA should be rarer than the means, and well ... we don't actually observe a bona fide Cross Polar Flow set up so often and there we go... 

As an aside, when time lags are applied to the indices, I'm not sure ( though suspect it is so - ) if there is a better negative correlation that is exposed.  Because I have observed countless times over 30 years of this crap, a -EPO --> +PNA over an ~ 3-5 day lapse. A time in which the EPO relaxes back to neutral aft of a +d(PNA).  It gives the allusion if not physical exposure of a planetary wave roll out of the N. Pacific.  This is not the same as cross polar flow. More like a "relay".  It's the more common type and regulates the periodicity of cold loading events into Canada.  For regions between the NP/GL-NE drape, the difference between a CPF hemisphere, vs this latter delivery, is probably less than meaningfully different - both showcase someone heaving a boiling cup of water to demo saturation vapor pressure causing half of it to explode into vapor, while the other half rings to the ground like shattered stemware.  Maybe the CPF is 7 deg colder in the core of the cold extreme or something by below -10 F wtf cares... 

Just sayn' ...

Yea, that is what I figured he meant. I don't think we'll see that in the mean, but definitely possible for shorter windows.

[Typhoon Tip]

1 minute ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

Yea, that is what I figured he meant. I don't think we'll see that in the mean, but definitely possible for shorter windows.

To imagine that careening into the STJ over Texas, huh

ho man

[40/70 Benchmark]

4 minutes ago, Typhoon Tip said:

To imagine that careening into the STJ over Texas, huh

ho man

Usually in a warm ENSO of this magnitude, the GOA low is so prominent that it often bleeds into AK in the mean, so the season ends up predominately +EPO....BUT, one wild card is how that residual cool ENSO residue across the north Pacific parlays this season....yea, it will probably augment the Canadian ridge, but might it also mitigate the lower height leakage into AK, and potentially not bury the STJ quite as much as would be implied by the HOF-juggernaut El Nino composite??

Interesting....

[Typhoon Tip]

15 minutes ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

Usually in a a warm ENSO of this magnitude, the GOA low is so prominent that it often bleeds into AK in the mean, so the season ends up predominately +EPO....BUT, one wild card is how that residual cool ENSO residue across the north Pacific parlays this season....yea, it will probably augment the Canadian ridge, but might it also mitigate the lower height leakage into AK, and potentially not bury the STJ quite as much as would be implied by the HOF-juggernaut El Nino composite??

Interesting....

Definitely the rub ... whether ENSO is related or not, that 'bleeding into AK' is often a torpedo, and it's useful to note too because the model handling of the GOA is idiosyncratic; it's positive or negative interference in the actual state sends mid and extended range error. Smaller GOA errors in position seems toward a higher sensitive and a larger total response in whether cold conveyors orient more S or ... more importantly for cold/winter enthusiasts, deflects more E across the Canadian northern tier - regardless of CPF of or not. 

The latter aspect of La Nina hangover episodes is interesting, though.  The whole RONI aspect is also relevant here. 

[40/70 Benchmark]

Regardless of the total picture, there exists absolutely astronomical, extraordinarily high potential during shorter intervals that belies what should be a mild seasonal mean....the devil is in the details and it's easy to miss the period when all hell broke loose when you only view a snapshot composite of a winter's life. Almost akin to considering a middle-aged guy like me....46 yrs, old, decent career, 4 beautiful children and an aggregate of circumstances that embodies a ho-hum mid-life...sure, but when viewing a 46-year composite mean, it's easy to miss the US Marine that collected 2 OUIs and came within a toad's whisker of having it all end long before any of my kids were even so much as a glint in my eye.