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Upstate NY/North Country + adjacent ON, QC, VT: End of Fall/Into Winter!


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We will see what happens. Banding with this should be good early on but how far back does it go? NAM has backed off on western extent of heavier precip and weakens it as well. The track is usually a good one for us. Backlash may be more impressive than western flank of precip shield. Lots of moisture, low shear and lake enhancement could surprise??? LEK is right. This track with a colder airmass and a strengthening storm near NYC would of made for some very high snowfall rates in that deformation band. Board has been quiet this late fall/early winter.

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The NAM is officially a joke. 6 hours after giving nothing to all points north and west of BGM, it has 1-2 feet across all of CNY and ENY, with 6-12 in WNY. If I had to bet I think the 0z will be much closer to the final solution with regards to the track, but the precip is probably overdone as it usually is on the NeverAccurateModel.

 

Edit: Wow. The backlash snow is still going strong on Friday morning at the end of the run. Could be quite a week.

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WTF is the NAM doing??? Hilarious. Hope it's right though.

George was right...NAM qpf back with a vengeance on 00z run. I esp like the lull that occurs on the NAM around 36-42 hrs, only to come back full retard over CNY for the next 12 hrs. It's got issues...seems to lose slp definition also around this timeframe...although this system will be a struggle for most any NWP to exactly nail. My conference in Albany was changed to a webex meeting so I'll be able to sit home and break out the popcorn for this beauty.

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George was right...NAM qpf back with a vengeance on 00z run. I esp like the lull that occurs on the NAM around 36-42 hrs, only to come back full retard over CNY for the next 12 hrs. It's got issues...seems to lose slp definition also around this timeframe...although this system will be a struggle for most any NWP to exactly nail. My conference in Albany was changed to a webex meeting so I'll be able to sit home and break out the popcorn for this beauty.

 

You forgot the Reds Apple Ale along with that popcorn. I went through quite a few of them during our LES event. ^_^

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You forgot the Reds Apple Ale along with that popcorn. I went through quite a few of them during our LES event. ^_^

that's a damn good idea! I usually drink drier red wine as it has less sugar (low carb diet here)...but splurging once in a while isnt a bad thing. ;). Will be interesting to see what GEM and GFS bring to the table next. I'd think BUF to ROC end up doing well with this also. Hopefully we all win.
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Some are speculating that the RAP and NAM are closing off much more quickly at 500mb, which would lead to more westerly solution that would increase snowfall across the region. Something to keep an eye on.

 

Also, the 0z GFS just came in a bit stronger with the low and increased snowfall across CNY and ENY, although it cut back a bit in WNY.

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Some are speculating that the RAP and NAM are closing off much more quickly at 500mb, which would lead to more westerly solution that would increase snowfall across the region. Something to keep an eye on.

 

Also, the 0z GFS just came in a bit stronger with the low and increased snowfall across CNY and ENY, although it cut back a bit in WNY.

Yep, GFS showing a similar qpf max idea as NAM, around SYR. Not sure I'm a buyer, as qpf tends to be one of the more unreliable panels...esp with banded structures. Basically, one more model cycle tomorrow morning and then it's Nowcast time. I am becoming more convinced that liquid ptype will be minimal in CNY, FWIW.

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Some are speculating that the RAP and NAM are closing off much more quickly at 500mb, which would lead to more westerly solution that would increase snowfall across the region. Something to keep an eye on.

 

Also, the 0z GFS just came in a bit stronger with the low and increased snowfall across CNY and ENY, although it cut back a bit in WNY.

Not to be a jerk, but can you say who is speculating? I watch very closely and none of the recent 0z models say the low is taking a more western track as compared to say the 12z or 18z models. I don't like this storm for WNY, unless Lake Ontario wakes up in a big way. Very weird storm. I saw those maxes near Syracuse and basically discounted them, storm is too far OTS.
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Posted this in North New England thread:

 

What do you think the max snowfall total will be in the next 96 hours, at locations under 3000 ft ? (i.e. not Mount Washington). I am seeing the 12z GFS show up to 3" of total QPF for the middle of Maine. This area looks warm(ish) at 850mb for a long time though, so there won't be 30" of snow there. Based on this web site:

 

http://coolwx.com/ptype 

 

it looks like some sections of all mountains/hills (ME/NH/VT/NY) could get 1.25" of QPF in the form of snow, possibly up to 15" of snow if things stay a little cold. A 12:1 snow ratio might be the max snow ratio you might get in the low mountains/hills. Also of note: the 18z GFS has a lot of freezing rain for Burlington or Montpelier.

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my concern is that wny is relying more and more on an anemic, retrograde low that drops precip over 72 hours or more. And not starting until the 3rd period. To put ANY faith in that type of scenario is a bit crazy I think. The models that did show a thump from the intitial storm have all moved east. So we have to wait for it to get to burlington before seeing a 'significant' snow storm. No. Our best bet from Rochester east is that this hard to predict storm once again jogs to the west and begins hammering at us tuesday late thru weds with serious Lake Effect enhancement from Ontario. And Im not seeing a single model that does this since the 12 z euro, and even that was a bit too Far East. I WILL be waiting for tonites euro (even though its out of its golden range). I cant put a lot of faith in all the other ones as they've been all over the place- except for the RGEM- which has just recently gone east. just my 2 cents. not putting a lot on the table for this one. Sorry snow lovers.

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my concern is that wny is relying more and more on an anemic, retrograde low that drops precip over 72 hours or more. And not starting until the 3rd period. To put ANY faith in that type of scenario is a bit crazy I think. The models that did show a thump from the intitial storm have all moved east. So we have to wait for it to get to burlington before seeing a 'significant' snow storm. No. Our best bet from Rochester east is that this hard to predict storm once again jogs to the west and begins hammering at us tuesday late thru weds with serious Lake Effect enhancement from Ontario. And Im not seeing a single model that does this since the 12 z euro, and even that was a bit too Far East. I WILL be waiting for tonites euro (even though its out of its golden range). I cant put a lot of faith in all the other ones as they've been all over the place- except for the RGEM- which has just recently gone east. just my 2 cents. not putting a lot on the table for this one. Sorry snow lovers.

 

I don't think most are expecting this to be a large storm. Temperatures are marginal, snow fall rates are light/moderate, and most of the strong dynamics are well East. Here is Dons latest map. He lowered the totals a tad.

 

10357257_975343749146495_156516354427394

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Not to be a jerk, but can you say who is speculating? I watch very closely and none of the recent 0z models say the low is taking a more western track as compared to say the 12z or 18z models. I don't like this storm for WNY, unless Lake Ontario wakes up in a big way. Very weird storm. I saw those maxes near Syracuse and basically discounted them, storm is too far OTS.

 

Steven DiMartino, among others who know more about models than I do.

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my concern is that wny is relying more and more on an anemic, retrograde low that drops precip over 72 hours or more. And not starting until the 3rd period. To put ANY faith in that type of scenario is a bit crazy I think. The models that did show a thump from the intitial storm have all moved east. So we have to wait for it to get to burlington before seeing a 'significant' snow storm. No. Our best bet from Rochester east is that this hard to predict storm once again jogs to the west and begins hammering at us tuesday late thru weds with serious Lake Effect enhancement from Ontario. And Im not seeing a single model that does this since the 12 z euro, and even that was a bit too Far East. I WILL be waiting for tonites euro (even though its out of its golden range). I cant put a lot of faith in all the other ones as they've been all over the place- except for the RGEM- which has just recently gone east. just my 2 cents. not putting a lot on the table for this one. Sorry snow lovers.

 

Serious lake enhancement should not be words you use with this storm.  Very minor, almost imperceptible lake enhancement is more like it.  Delta T's and surface temps are pretty marginal.  I think 4-8 looks reasonable for the ROC.  Just a fun couple of snowy days, nothing more, nothing less.

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KBGM 1pm update...

 

H9 TEMPS PER LATEST RUC MODEL INDICATING BLYR TEMPS RMNG ISOTHERMAL
THRU 21Z THIS AFTN AND VRY SLOWLY DROPPING BYND THIS TIME. EXPECT A
MIXED BAG THRU BULK OF THE OVRNGT FOR SXNS EAST OF I-81 WITH CLD AIR
BEING PULLED IN FM THE WEST. ANOTHER WV FCST TO MV THRU NRN ZONES
AFT 06Z TONIGHT AND WITH MOISTURE FM LK ADDED IN EXPECT SVRL INCHES
OF SNOW TO FALL ACRS THE FINGER LKS BY 12Z. STORM TOTAL SNOWFALL
THRU THE OVRNGT IS NOW LOOKING TO BE MEAGER WITH A GNRL INCH OR TWO
ACRS THE BULK OF THE AREA AND POSSIBLY 2-4 INCHES IN HIGHER
ELEVATIONS OF SUSQUEHANNA REGION. WL DRASTICALLY BE REDUCING SNOW
TOTALS FOR THIS EVENT AND WL ALLOW LATER SHIFTS TO MAKE DECISION ON
WHETHER TO CANCEL OR DROP WARNINGS DOWN TO ADVISORY.

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