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Baroclinic Zone

Fall Banter and General Discussion

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13 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

It's almost as if the Vermont government only kinda wants to have a quarantine. They want to be able to say they are being strict to protect residents, but at the same time winking a little so that people know they can still come ski, for example. I just find it a little unclear. People can call NY's policies draconian, but at least they are clear you have a real risk of penalties for violations.

Oh it’s the definition of unclear.  Humans do not like rules without penalties, that’s well proven.  Honor code is like the most basic psych study out there.  If no one is watching, what will you do?

It’s like they haven’t figured out how to set a capacity... like they don’t want 100% of tourism but they don’t want 0% either.  They want like 50-75%.  And they can’t figure out how to get there.  So they assume some rule followers won’t come (say 25% of potential visitors will opt out), while others will say they don’t care...and arrive at that 75% business level like they did this summer and fall.

I truly think for the state it’s all about controlling a spigot that they haven’t figured out how to get the nozzle screwed on right.

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18 minutes ago, radarman said:

Charlie Baker can impose a curfew but once he starts talking schools, yeah no.

Yeah the school thing is weird after saying we can’t go outside and jog without a mask on. Now you want to send kids all into school where they cannot socially distance? 

Well, either it’s so serious that people can’t go into a park without their mask on, or it’s not so bad that we can stuff 30 kids into a classroom 2-3 feet apart from each other. Which one is it? 

21 minutes ago, CoastalWx said:

Just go. 

We’ll see how much enforcement happens once ski season starts. If it’s virtually zero then I stay may go to Magic. It’s not hard at all for me to go by myself and not have to ever go inside. Eat lunch in the car or whatever. 

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10 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

Yeah the school thing is weird after saying we can’t go outside and jog without a mask on. Now you want to send kids all into school where they cannot socially distance? 

Well, either it’s so serious that people can’t go into a park without their mask on, or it’s not so bad that we can stuff 30 kids into a classroom 2-3 feet apart from each other. Which one is it? 

We’ll see how much enforcement happens once ski season starts. If it’s virtually zero then I stay may go to Magic. It’s not hard at all for me to go by myself and not have to ever go inside. Eat lunch in the car or whatever. 

How are they going to enforce the blood line to the economy? Maybe a few cops enforce it to look like they are trying, but I can’t see this being a strict thing. 

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18 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

Yeah the school thing is weird after saying we can’t go outside and jog without a mask on. Now you want to send kids all into school where they cannot socially distance? 

Well, either it’s so serious that people can’t go into a park without their mask on, or it’s not so bad that we can stuff 30 kids into a classroom 2-3 feet apart from each other. Which one is it? 

We’ll see how much enforcement happens once ski season starts. If it’s virtually zero then I stay may go to Magic. It’s not hard at all for me to go by myself and not have to ever go inside. Eat lunch in the car or whatever. 

I’m sure it will be fine, but the uncertainty and “wink wink” messaging is hard on rule followers and worriers. 

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9 minutes ago, PhineasC said:

I’m sure it will be fine, but the uncertainty and “wink wink” messaging is hard on rule followers and worriers. 

Yeah I’m basically just waiting to see if they do license plate hunting or not.  

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3 hours ago, HIPPYVALLEY said:

Oh no!   Loved him. I got to hang out with him for a weekend on Martha’s Vineyard. He was really tight with my wife’s best friend’s father.  

Funny MF,  he told me NBA stories I would never repeat on a public forum.  That guy could toss back the beers too! 

My buddy interned with the Celtics a few years ago... said Tommy was a remarkably normal fun guy. Never lost that with all the fame and accolades.

Im not sure people truly realize what an incredible loss this is. There will never be anyone else like him in sports more than likely.

Been a part of ever Celtics championship, literally.

Truly sad day.

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1 hour ago, ORH_wxman said:

Yeah I’m basically just waiting to see if they do license plate hunting or not.  

As long as you can "quarantine at home before traveling" it's all a moot point.  No one knows what you did at home before hand.  Lots of folks working from home these days, too.

I think Phin and I are on the same page as it penalizes those following the rules as they then see their neighbors going on vacation and having a great time.  Like the kid in high school who wants to have fun but follows his parent's guidelines, while all the other kids are having the night of their life at the big bonfire party in the woods behind the High School.

Unless the Gov't goes back to "Stay at Home" type stuff, after a few weekends of ski season I think most will feel comfortable... but still sucks the state wants to put people in the position of lying.  That's a very Vermont thing to do... make a rule based on honor or morals.

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1 hour ago, powderfreak said:

As long as you can "quarantine at home before traveling" it's all a moot point.  No one knows what you did at home before hand.  Lots of folks working from home these days, too.

I think Phin and I are on the same page as it penalizes those following the rules as they then see their neighbors going on vacation and having a great time.  Like the kid in high school who wants to have fun but follows his parent's guidelines, while all the other kids are having the night of their life at the big bonfire party in the woods behind the High School.

Unless the Gov't goes back to "Stay at Home" type stuff, after a few weekends of ski season I think most will feel comfortable... but still sucks the state wants to put people in the position of lying.  That's a very Vermont thing to do... make a rule based on honor or morals.

I'm willing to bet in a couple Fridays the endless stream of black SUVs with NY/NJ/CT plates will be racing up I-91. I can't imagine that the ski areas are expecting compliance with this otherwise why even open for the year? Have to imagine most of the revenue from the bigger resorts is from out of state guests who would not be able to quarantine in most situations. 

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2 hours ago, ORH_wxman said:

We’ll see how much enforcement happens once ski season starts. If it’s virtually zero then I stay may go to Magic. It’s not hard at all for me to go by myself and not have to ever go inside. Eat lunch in the car or whatever. 

Yeah but you would be picking me up on the way...

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31 minutes ago, CT Rain said:

I'm willing to bet in a couple Fridays the endless stream of black SUVs with NY/NJ/CT plates will be racing up I-91. I can't imagine that the ski areas are expecting compliance with this otherwise why even open for the year? Have to imagine most of the revenue from the bigger resorts is from out of state guests who would not be able to quarantine in most situations. 

Yeah and many of them will be stopping in Greenfield for gas, groceries and dinner.   :unsure:

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36 minutes ago, CT Rain said:

I'm willing to bet in a couple Fridays the endless stream of black SUVs with NY/NJ/CT plates will be racing up I-91. I can't imagine that the ski areas are expecting compliance with this otherwise why even open for the year? Have to imagine most of the revenue from the bigger resorts is from out of state guests who would not be able to quarantine in most situations. 

Wear a mask, social distance, avoid large groups, be respectful of the situation, but beyond that it’s hard to enforce.  Meet in the middle.

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Heinsohn gone-part of my childhood.

 

I remember going to a basketball clinic at the old Madison Sq Garden with Bob Cousy and his youthful assistant Tommy Heinsohn.  I was about 10-12 years old.  A true renaissance man-accomplish graphic artist and of course great athlete and all around interesting character.  RIP.

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54 minutes ago, CT Rain said:

I'm willing to bet in a couple Fridays the endless stream of black SUVs with NY/NJ/CT plates will be racing up I-91. I can't imagine that the ski areas are expecting compliance with this otherwise why even open for the year? Have to imagine most of the revenue from the bigger resorts is from out of state guests who would not be able to quarantine in most situations. 

On the cusp of unsustainable growth rate ,shutdowns to follow

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54 minutes ago, CT Rain said:

I'm willing to bet in a couple Fridays the endless stream of black SUVs with NY/NJ/CT plates will be racing up I-91. I can't imagine that the ski areas are expecting compliance with this otherwise why even open for the year? Have to imagine most of the revenue from the bigger resorts is from out of state guests who would not be able to quarantine in most situations. 

That’s why the VT rules are kind of silly. The resorts are still saying “come on up” as if it’s situation normal. 

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29 minutes ago, powderfreak said:

Wear a mask, social distance, avoid large groups, be respectful of the situation, but beyond that it’s hard to enforce.  Meet in the middle.

For sure. I mean everyone I know with an IKON or EPIC pass is 100% expecting to ski in VT this winter. Not even contemplating not going. 

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31 minutes ago, wxeyeNH said:

Deaths really starting to ramp up. 1340 today. Maybe we can revisit a Covid thread again. Now that elections are over maybe politics can stay out of it?? This is on the verge of getting really bad. Thoughts?

I liked the thread but it’s hard to go too far into discussion without politics becoming intertwined.

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8 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

On the cusp of unsustainable growth rate ,shutdowns to follow

Yeah, we're in a very bad place. There's also no appetite for shutdowns like we had in March which will make this that much harder. Thankfully outcomes are better with better treatments but man it's not going to pretty. 

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33 minutes ago, CT Rain said:

For sure. I mean everyone I know with an IKON or EPIC pass is 100% expecting to ski in VT this winter. Not even contemplating not going. 

Powder freak is right.  I have a full time condo rental in VT.  So yes.  No equity.  Just throwing money away.  And I’ve been there 4 nights in 8 months even though prior to that I lived there 165 days a year.  I work from home full time and get everything delivered to avoid people.  My husband is a full time remote student.  I have season passes and can walk about 50 years to the lift.  So we also will have parking hang tags (no reservations necessary) and no need to use a base lodge at all for any reason. Yet I’m feeling like we should not be going to Vermont because of all this.  Vermonters are very vocal about not wanting anyone out of state to go there.  I suspect that once the skiers start going and as the infection rates rise the folks there will blame the outsiders and it will be very uncomfortable to be there if you are a rule follower and care what people think.  Our condo building has a laundry mat and it’s a small condo (2 rooms -550 sq feet). If we leave our house for the condo we have to leave our food stockpile (freezers of meat and stocked non perishables - we probably have 4+ months of food on hand at least).  And I worry about running out of oil or if we have a lot of snow at our house.  Honestly, if we could be there all winter but could travel the 2 hours home for a day every few weeks without stopping along the way we could get our laundry done and resupply food without people contact.  But VT won’t allow that.  So if we go we have to stay and use common laundry facilities and go to stores which is far riskier.  The quarantine is making us WAY less safe.  I honestly stress about all this.  But I see people I know at Killington putting together their share houses same as always.  CT Appleman is right.  I think most people probably don’t even know there is a travel restriction. A woman I know from CT posted about her trip to the VT general store and yankee candle yesterday with pictures and everything.  Said she was bummed she could not stay overnight in VT because of the quarantine. She obviously thinks there is some 24 hour exemption like CT has for people coming to CT.  Part of me is ready to think we just can’t go to VT at all this year and yet I see people clearly all thinking they are just going to go for weekends etc. Who loses?  The safe person like me who is absolutely no threat to anyone and worries about the rules.

I do think the ski season could get shut down in the near future in Vermont at this rate anyway.

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25 minutes ago, Connecticut Appleman said:

Don't know economically if it is better to have a 3+/- week shutdown (would need to be on a regional basis to be effective) to try to bring this back under control or the death by a thousand paper cuts approach.

Hate to sound like a heartless asshole, but the deaths don’t really affect the economy. The people dying are mostly old and sick already. Not really engines of economic production. Lockdowns of healthy young workers and consumers definitely affects the economy. 

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4 minutes ago, HoarfrostHubb said:

A stimulus that is well done could help with a lockdown.   Tamp down the cases for a little while.  Get us through some of the winter. 

The appetite for another lockdown I think is close to zero, especially since people feel misled about timelines and what was closed or open when it happened.

Unless you plan on literally giving businesses enough money to close for x amount of time and then enough money to rehire every single employee when they can reopen, in addition to supporting citizens with real money (not a one time $1200 payment) it’ll never work.

A starting point for compliance is probably going to be thousands of dollars per month per person. 

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4 minutes ago, TauntonBlizzard2013 said:

The appetite for another lockdown I think is close to zero, especially since people feel misled about timelines and what was closed or open when it happened.

Unless you plan on literally giving businesses enough money to close for x amount of time and then enough money to rehire every single employee when they can reopen, in addition to supporting citizens with real money (not a one time $1200 payment) it’ll never work.

A starting point for compliance is probably going to be thousands of dollars per month per person. 

Like some of us tried to say... the majority of Americans are simply willing to accept some level of death amongst the old and sick part of the populace in exchange for keeping their jobs, businesses, and mental health intact. It doesn’t help that the media spent six months trying to convince everyone that young people were dying from this disease in any appreciable way when it is clear to anyone paying attention that is totally false. 

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3 minutes ago, TauntonBlizzard2013 said:

The appetite for another lockdown I think is close to zero, especially since people feel misled about timelines and what was closed or open when it happened.

Unless you plan on literally giving businesses enough money to close for x amount of time and then enough money to rehire every single employee when they can reopen, in addition to supporting citizens with real money (not a one time $1200 payment) it’ll never work.

A starting point for compliance is probably going to be thousands of dollars per month per person. 

Ain’t happening.  Extended unemployment, money for testing, targeted PPP, maybe extend the student loan deferment for a few more months is probably all we’ll muster. I doubt stimulus checks get sent out again either, especially if the Rs look to keep Senate control. Nothing happening until the next administration though I think, so February is the earliest anything will show up. Just my 2 cents. 

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7 minutes ago, TauntonBlizzard2013 said:

The appetite for another lockdown I think is close to zero, especially since people feel misled about timelines and what was closed or open when it happened.

Unless you plan on literally giving businesses enough money to close for x amount of time and then enough money to rehire every single employee when they can reopen, in addition to supporting citizens with real money (not a one time $1200 payment) it’ll never work.

A starting point for compliance is probably going to be thousands of dollars per month per person. 

Unless the federal government steps up to pay bars/restaurants/etc to stay closed (which of course they should) and keep their employees whole I'm not sure what can be done. 

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Just now, CT Rain said:

Unless the federal government steps up to pay bars/restaurants/etc to stay closed (which of course they should) and keep their employees whole I'm not sure what can be done. 

That’s basically what some EU countries did. Nationalized payroll for the spring lockdown. Not sure if their outcomes were better though. 

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