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2 hours ago, winterwx21 said:

I definitely agree. We're seeing more and more heart inflammation cases. They all haven't been confirmed, but there have been over 1200 reports in the United States. This isn't an insignificant amount, and who knows if the incidence will increase or if it will be greater in even younger children. There are other countries that are only giving children 1 dose or are not giving any at all due to these heart inflammation concerns.

I certainly understand why these vaccines were rushed. It was a true emergency. But I find it disturbing that some people shame people that are choosing to not take the vaccine. There are enough safety concerns, especially due to the lack of long term study, that it can be considered reasonable to decide to not take the vaccine if you're at low covid risk. And I certainly would not dismiss the fact that the doctor (Robert Malone) that at least had a major hand in developing MRNA technology is concerned about long term safety enough that he doesn't recommend the vaccine for young people. It's obvious why health authorities and the media would want to downplay what he says, since everyone wants the pandemic overwith as soon as possible. But his concerns certainly could be valid.

I remember you saying that you were going to get vaccinated (or at least strongly leaning toward it).  Are you reconsidering now?

There's a lot of noise out there about the covid vaccines.  I think it helps to go back to the basics.  Historically, post-vaccine side effects tend to occur more on a days or weeks time scale.  Tends to be does not necessarily mean always will be, and it's true that the long term data hasn't been established because of the unfortunate circumstance of being in a public health emergency.  Without that long term data, I'd be more nervous about taking a booster, especially if a booster is going to be needed relatively soon.  Hopefully no long term problems come to light, but if something does, then it would stand to reason that it may be more of a risk if you get jabbed over and over and over again. 

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1 hour ago, Hoosier said:

I remember you saying that you were going to get vaccinated (or at least strongly leaning toward it).  Are you reconsidering now?

There's a lot of noise out there about the covid vaccines.  I think it helps to go back to the basics.  Historically, post-vaccine side effects tend to occur more on a days or weeks time scale.  Tends to be does not necessarily mean always will be, and it's true that the long term data hasn't been established because of the unfortunate circumstance of being in a public health emergency.  Without that long term data, I'd be more nervous about taking a booster, especially if a booster is going to be needed relatively soon.  Hopefully no long term problems come to light, but if something does, then it would stand to reason that it may be more of a risk if you get jabbed over and over and over again. 

I've been going back and forth on it. It's a very difficult decision. I'd say I'm leaning towards getting vaccinated this summer, in case this delta variant becomes a bigger problem in the fall. But if I get vaccinated it would probably be the J&J vaccine, since that's a more traditional type of vaccine. It's true that side effects would tend to show up in the short term, but I think it's more important to have longer term safety data on the MRNA vaccines since it is technology that hasn't been used on people before. I'm not an expert obviously, so I don't know how legitimate Dr. Robert Malone's concerns are about lipid nanoparticles possibly causing cancer several years after vaccination. I don't think I would be comfortable taking that type of vaccine unless an expert can convince me that it isn't a legitimate concern.

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 Just wait until people realize that "lipid nanoparticles" are the same thing your body produces naturally to transport lipids from your diet (in the form of lipoproteins) just with a different interior. I guess I should look at what the guy's actual argument is, but I'm very confused about how a bunch of lipids are going to make a cell divide uncontrollably. 

In other words, this guy is either a complete nutcase or -like someone else mentioned- is trying to screw with other people for another reason.

 

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About Missouri

They had their highest daily case number today since early February.  They are behind the national average in vaccinations, but still almost 40% of the state is fully vaxxed.  Combine that with prior infections and now being in summer, it's "impressive" to see rising numbers.  The deck is stacked against it in multiple ways and it still found a way to happen.  

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No matter what long-term effects the vaccine MAY have on the body in RARE cases, to me it was no-brainer to get vaccinated when staring at the short-term risk of not being vaccinated and contracting the virus, especially with the more dangerous variants spreading in our country. It's been clear for the past several weeks that almost all of the new cases are among the non-vaccinated.

Is my thinking simplistic? Maybe, but so are the arguments of the anti-vaxxers, the people who still will not get the shot because of the unknown horrible things it might do to the body, because it's all a hoax, because the government can't make me take it, because it's no worse that a cold, because...because...because.

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1 hour ago, IWXwx said:

No matter what long-term effects the vaccine MAY have on the body in RARE cases, to me it was no-brainer to get vaccinated when staring at the short-term risk of not being vaccinated and contracting the virus, especially with the more dangerous variants spreading in our country. It's been clear for the past several weeks that almost all of the new cases are among the non-vaccinated.

Is my thinking simplistic? Maybe, but so are the arguments of the anti-vaxxers, the people who still will not get the shot because of the unknown horrible things it might do to the body, because it's all a hoax, because the government can't make me take it, because it's no worse that a cold, because...because...because.

Yeah exactly, I will take my chances on a fraction of a percent of having some sort of long term impact from a vaccine over getting COVID. You know what long term impact from COVID you can get, death, and that one is quite a long term impact. :lmao:

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7 hours ago, winterwx21 said:

I've been going back and forth on it. It's a very difficult decision. I'd say I'm leaning towards getting vaccinated this summer, in case this delta variant becomes a bigger problem in the fall. But if I get vaccinated it would probably be the J&J vaccine, since that's a more traditional type of vaccine. It's true that side effects would tend to show up in the short term, but I think it's more important to have longer term safety data on the MRNA vaccines since it is technology that hasn't been used on people before. I'm not an expert obviously, so I don't know how legitimate Dr. Robert Malone's concerns are about lipid nanoparticles possibly causing cancer several years after vaccination. I don't think I would be comfortable taking that type of vaccine unless an expert can convince me that it isn't a legitimate concern.

If and when novavax gets approved in the US, I think it'll be the best fit for you based on everything you've posted. This is a really well written article about it. 

https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/619276/

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https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#variant-proportions

Based on CDC data, Missouri has a highest percentage of Delta variant of states those data is listed. (~30% as of 6/5 so its probably dominant variant there now.). That is likely not a coincidence. No idea why it has taken a quicker foothold there. Some of that is random chance I think based on who travels when with what variant.

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7 hours ago, mattb65 said:

If and when novavax gets approved in the US, I think it'll be the best fit for you based on everything you've posted. This is a really well written article about it. 

https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/619276/

That does sound good. Thank you for the information! Maybe it will be available later in the summer.

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21 hours ago, madwx said:

That website and bio reads of someone who had a falling out with fellow researchers and now has an axe to grind.   He may have been involved in the development of mRNA technology but to claim him as the creator of it seems disingenuous.  People have been researching mRNA since the mid 70s.    

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-cytotoxic/fact-check-covid-19-vaccines-are-not-cytotoxic-idUSL2N2O01XP

Here is him also in a podcast episode claiming that the vaccines are cytotoxic(which they aren't).   

He uses the phrase "intellectual rape" at one point on his website to describe how his research/patent was supposedly stolen from him, so he definitely has an axe to grind. At the time of this invention that was taken from him in 1988 he was a master's degree student. Having just finished my own PhD thesis in drug discovery this year, I would be very wary of anyone making as bold a claim of "I invented a whole new type of treatment" from research they did as a student. Intellectual property-wise, it would be his supervisor's and the university's invention. He certainly wasn't running the show and coming up with the ideas on his own.

Most of his peer-reviewed, Pubmed articles are actually about inserting DNA, not RNA, into mammalian cells, and basically all of those are from the 1990s. He pops back up on Pubmed around the time of Zika virus and now again with COVID, but his actual peer-reviewed articles from the past year are about using acid reflux medication (famotidine) to treat COVID. He is a modestly productive researcher (~50 published articles isn't nothing but also isn't overly impressive for a research scientist) clearly with some experience, but I wouldn't consider him any sort of authority on the COVID vaccines being used today given how far the field has progressed and given that he's 20 years removed from any nucleic acid work and 30 years removed from any mRNA work.

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40 minutes ago, cutlew said:

He uses the phrase "intellectual rape" at one point on his website to describe how his research/patent was supposedly stolen from him, so he definitely has an axe to grind. At the time of this invention that was taken from him in 1988 he was a master's degree student. Having just finished my own PhD thesis in drug discovery this year, I would be very wary of anyone making as bold a claim of "I invented a whole new type of treatment" from research they did as a student. Intellectual property-wise, it would be his supervisor's and the university's invention. He certainly wasn't running the show and coming up with the ideas on his own.

Most of his peer-reviewed, Pubmed articles are actually about inserting DNA, not RNA, into mammalian cells, and basically all of those are from the 1990s. He pops back up on Pubmed around the time of Zika virus and now again with COVID, but his actual peer-reviewed articles from the past year are about using acid reflux medication (famotidine) to treat COVID. He is a modestly productive researcher (~50 published articles isn't nothing but also isn't overly impressive for a research scientist) clearly with some experience, but I wouldn't consider him any sort of authority on the COVID vaccines being used today given how far the field has progressed and given that he's 20 years removed from any nucleic acid work and 30 years removed from any mRNA work.

Obviously you're very knowledgeable and this is very good information. Thanks for posting this. It sounds as if this guy is not a phony and has enough experience/knowledge that his opinions shouldn't be completely dismissed, but we also shouldn't be overly concerned because he's far from the top expert and could be exaggerating due to having an axe to grind.

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Obviously there has been tremendous progress with turning the tide on the pandemic in the US, but we are still averaging a few hundred deaths per day as we head into the generally less favorable time of year for spread.  There may be some months-ago backlog deaths factoring into the average, but I don't think that's playing a huge role.  Run that daily number out over the course of a year and it would be 100k deaths.  More "acceptable" than what we've seen, but let's not settle for that.  In a country of 330 million people with vaccines that aren't perfect, people will die, but we can do better. 

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3 hours ago, Hoosier said:

Mattb65, might be time to sweat.  Cases UP slightly and still over 10k

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I'm done,  just barely going to miss 10k, there's not much more that the high vaccination states can drop and the delta variant and sunbelt seasonality changes are going to do their thing.  I'll bow out for the next couple months. 

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17 minutes ago, mattb65 said:

I'm done,  just barely going to miss 10k, there's not much more that the high vaccination states can drop and the delta variant and sunbelt seasonality changes are going to do their thing.  I'll bow out for the next couple months. 

Well, you probably would've been bowing out of here anyway, because as I said a while back, I'm closing this thread.  :P  Left it open to be able to track the declines and see if we could get under that 10k number by the end of the month, but the question has seemingly been answered.  With so many prior infections and vaccinations, we are going to be learning along the way as we head through each season.  Hopefully fall and winter aren't too bad.

Once again, thanks to you and everyone who provided valuable info in this thread.  

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