weatherwiz Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Just thinking about the physics involved here, I find it very hard to believe that a truck could remain aloft over that distance. It would eventually be spit out much sooner than that. The updraft velocities would have to be astronomical and still be lucky enough for the truck to not be centrifuged out at some point. Thinking about such scenario, not only would you need an updraft of historical precedence but you would have to be talking about a downdraft of historical precedence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornadotony Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Just thinking about the physics involved here, I find it very hard to believe that a truck could remain aloft over that distance. It would eventually be spit out much sooner than that. The updraft velocities would have to be astronomical and still be lucky enough for the truck to not be centrifuged out at some point. I could see it happening if the engine block is removed and only the frame is being referenced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ground Scouring Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 I am seeing this story everywhere. Honestly, that is such an incredible claim that i'm a little hesitant to believe it. There is a similar rumor floating around about the 1998 Forgotten F5, but I don't think it has ever been proven. I'd want to see pictures/confirmation through a reliable source for this. One would think that a vehicle exposed to violent winds/debris for such a long time would just disintegrate. If it ends up being true, then that has to be the farthest documented distance a vehicle has ever been carried by a tornado. Crazy. Edit: Typo The fact that the meteorologist quoted gives no indicator as to how his source knew it was the same vehicle is a big red flag re: the reliability of the account. If the tale were true, then I would expect to see some actual documentation. As with all such cases of extremely far vehicle transport, I am taking it with a huge grain of salt and am discarding it for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ground Scouring Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 By the way, I've just found a new record for "most intense tree damage" I've seen--these photos posted by NWS Jackson for the Louisville, MS, EF4. Note the very clearly granulated debris as well, along with the incredible debarking of low shrubbery on a scale equal to that of El Reno-Piedmont 2011. I'm surprised this tornado's been getting overlooked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ground Scouring Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 And another shot from Vilonia shows that there apparently were many more slabs than the initial photos suggested. http://www.srh.noaa.gov/lzk/imgviewer2.php?pic=aerial043014i The EF4 rating just got a lot less believable, in my view. Take a look at that ground scouring next to the slabs on the left-hand side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewxmann Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 ^Regarding that image, it is not entirely unlikely some cleanup has already taken place, thus the slabs looking cleaner than they actually were right after the tornado passed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ground Scouring Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 ^Regarding that image, it is not entirely unlikely some cleanup has already taken place, thus the slabs looking cleaner than they actually were right after the tornado passed. At first, I suspected clean-up had taken place, but then I noticed that some of the foundations on the lower left just seemed too clean…without even debris in piles that would normally indicate clean-up work. Given the number of clean slabs, at least some of them were likely in a clean-slabbed or similar state before clean-up work had taken place. And the ground scouring is in keeping with the other Vilonia-area images I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjack123 Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 The same guy who rated the Clinton, Arkansas tornado on February 5, 2008 I believe is the same guy who rated this recent Louisville, Mississippi tornado. The guy is extremely conservative about rating a tornado an EF5. He initially rated the Philadelphia tornado on April 27, 2011 an EF4 with winds of 180 mph. He was then told by other experts based on the amazing digging of two foot trenches in the ground that it could be upgraded to an EF5. He also conservatively rated a tornado on No ember 24, 2001 a high-end F4 which probably could have been rated F5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nflow6 Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 About the truck carried 27 miles that would be an unbelievable record if true but is highly likely false. I could see part of the frame such as the tailgate carried that distance perhaps. But an intact vehicle no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amped Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 About the truck carried 27 miles that would be an unbelievable record if true but is highly likely false. I could see part of the frame such as the tailgate carried that distance perhaps. But an intact vehicle no. It is unbelievable. That's why I think the story is probably not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye05 Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 At first, I suspected clean-up had taken place, but then I noticed that some of the foundations on the lower left just seemed too clean…without even debris in piles that would normally indicate clean-up work. Given the number of clean slabs, at least some of them were likely in a clean-slabbed or similar state before clean-up work had taken place. And the ground scouring is in keeping with the other Vilonia-area images I've seen. Come on now. Some basic double checking shows that none of that is true. Same neighborhood the morning after the event. Less clean slabs. Definitely cleanup related. In fact, some of the exact same homes that still have walls standing in this picture are now clean slabs in the picture being discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master of Disaster Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 I am not buying that 27 mile story at all. If the updraft was so intense it would keep a vehicle suspended for 27 miles, the hail alone in the storm would break records would it not? And I have seen no record breaking hail of any sort from that storm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nflow6 Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Yes the only way a truck got that far was if it was driven lol. We often hear these fantastic tales after violent tornadoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewxmann Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 The tornado must have given the truck wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjack123 Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 I feel as if though the Hesston, Kansas tornado would not have received an EF5 rating on today's scale. I live in Kansas so I saw the damage first hand. This tornado damage in Vilonia is comparable to what I saw in Hesston possibly even more intense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackjack123 Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 I feel as if though the Hesston, Kansas tornado would not have received an EF5 rating on today's scale. I live in Kansas so I saw the damage first hand. This tornado damage in Vilonia is comparable to what I saw in Hesston possibly even more intense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ground Scouring Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Come on now. Some basic double checking shows that none of that is true. Same neighborhood the morning after the event. Less clean slabs. Definitely cleanup related. In fact, some of the exact same homes that still have walls standing in this picture are now clean slabs in the picture being discussed. You're right…I should have double-checked the available photography. I'm sorry for irritating you with my intensity estimates; I'll try to give more solid evidence from now on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye05 Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 ^It's not a huge deal, just trying to keep the discussion objective/accurate. Anyway, here is the newly released LZK survey map with damage points. http://www.srh.noaa.gov/images/lzk/gis/tor042714a.kml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Lizard Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Come on now. Some basic double checking shows that none of that is true. Same neighborhood the morning after the event. Less clean slabs. Definitely cleanup related. In fact, some of the exact same homes that still have walls standing in this picture are now clean slabs in the picture being discussed. The blue roof tarps meant some time had passed, at least enough for homeowners with damaged but not destroyed homes to get tarps. So even without the different photos from different times. Its a damage scale, not a tornado strength scale, a little reading I did about the 1997 Jarrell tornado suggests the very slow movement of the tornado (over half a mile wide, speed less than 10 mph) gave it time to debris blast structures clean to the foundation, as compared with winds necessarily over 200 mph. Divorcing radar data from the assigned scales is more indication it isn't meant to be the tornado version of the Saffir-Simpson scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ground Scouring Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 ^It's not a huge deal, just trying to keep the discussion objective/accurate. Anyway, here is the newly released LZK survey map with damage points. http://www.srh.noaa.gov/images/lzk/gis/tor042714a.kml It appears that the subdivision with the empty slabs was between Clover Ridge and Aspen Creek Drives just NE of downtown Vilonia. The description only mentions home destroyed (EF4) and says nothing about the ground scouring, anchoring type (if any), etc. Interestingly, homes on Cody Lane SW of Vilonia (not photographed) also were slabbed, though they were not anchored properly, and several vehicles were carried hundreds of yards in the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SchaumburgStormer Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Its a damage scale, not a tornado strength scale Most often overlooked point. Essentially unknown to the general public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye05 Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 It appears that the subdivision with the empty slabs was between Clover Ridge and Aspen Creek Drives just NE of downtown Vilonia. The description only mentions home destroyed (EF4) and says nothing about the ground scouring, anchoring type (if any), etc. Interestingly, homes on Cody Lane SW of Vilonia (not photographed) also were slabbed, though they were not anchored properly, and several vehicles were carried hundreds of yards in the area. TWC showed a close up of the slabs in that Clover Ridge/Aspen Creek area neighborhood while conducting interviews, and it showed only carpet tacks along the perimeters (no bolts). This would suggest that the homes there were either un-anchored or cut-nailed to the foundations. Cut-nails usually are completely pulled out with damage like this, and they usually leave behind a divot and scratch mark where they scrape the concrete as the walls rip away. The shot wasn't quite detailed enough to see if that was present though. In any case, an un-anchored or nailed down home just doesn't qualify for EF5 intensity. Un-anchored homes don't qualify for obvious reasons, and nails don't provide resistance against the violent vertical motions present in tornadoes (though bolts with washers properly tightened over the sill plates can). For this reason, I'd have to say the EF4 rating in that neighborhood is appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye05 Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Most often overlooked point. Essentially unknown to the general public. I don't think so. It is a scale that estimates intensity based on damage. It isn't meant to measure the extent of damage itself. Quote from the SPC page on the EF scale: "The Enhanced F-scale is still a set of wind estimates (not measurements) based on damage." http://www.spc.noaa.gov/faq/tornado/ef-scale.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ground Scouring Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 TWC showed a close up of the slabs in that Clover Ridge/Aspen Creek area neighborhood while conducting interviews, and it showed only carpet tacks along the perimeters (no bolts). This would suggest that the homes there were either un-anchored or cut-nailed to the foundations. Cut-nails usually are completely pulled out with damage like this, and they usually leave behind a divot and scratch mark where they scrape the concrete as the walls rip away. The shot wasn't quite detailed enough to see if that was present though. In any case, an un-anchored or nailed down home just doesn't qualify for EF5 intensity. Un-anchored homes don't qualify for obvious reasons, and nails don't provide resistance against the violent vertical motions present in tornadoes (though bolts with washers properly tightened over the sill plates can). For this reason, I'd have to say the EF4 rating in that neighborhood is appropriate. In retrospect, I definitely agree with you that, in this case, the most intense structural damage probably did not qualify for an EF5 rating for the reasons you mentioned. In reality, all the potential EF5 indicators in this case--ground scouring, lack of debris, vehicles moved long distances and mangled--were not structural in nature. Based upon the lack of clear structural EF5 damage, I will now admit that the NWS probably made the right call here. I guess that I am just a bit cynical after the fiasco with Bennington/El Reno 2013 re: radar measurements and a few other high-profile issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hm8 Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 FWIW, Wikipedia has the count right now at: And 35 deaths edited because I can't numbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosier Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 FWIW, Wikipedia has the count right now at: And 62 deaths 62 deaths? Are you sure about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyhb Posted May 2, 2014 Author Share Posted May 2, 2014 I have 35 direct tornadic deaths and 62 confirmed tornadoes going by that page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hm8 Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 62 deaths? Are you sure about that? I have 35 direct tornadic deaths and 62 confirmed tornadoes going by that page. Whoops numbers are hard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorky Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 I think there'd be a lot less argument if the EF scale was a bit more open ended with it's final rating. Currently you see reports like 'the tornado has been rated EF4 with winds between 180mph and 190mph' which is quite specific. If it was phrased such that the tornado produced upto EF4 damage with wind speeds of at least 180mph, it leaves open the fact that it was likely stronger at some point which is statistically likely as a tornado generally only spends a small part of it's life cycle impacting buildings. People might then be more happy to accept the ratings and we'd get less of these ridiculous posts that clogged up this thread when the rating was announced! Affixing an upper end to the speed based on observed damage in just a small part of the tornado life cycle seems a little odd to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernWx2 Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 Difference of opinion is fine. I'm not basing my views on feelings, but rather what I see to be the blend of the evidence. The points have already been rehashed by others who have debated the Vilonia rating as well. Agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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