HoarfrostHubb Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Kevin is in Brimfield right now, texted me, actually has a camera with him. Guys he has a huge heart and knows most of the Mets who did the survey, relax. Two good posts Steve I can't believe Kevin is texting he has a huge hard on Oh, misread the post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtticaFanatica Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Holy blown out of proportion, if the folks that post here get insulted from us discussing damage degrees and questioning why, how, what and where then they are pretty thin skinned. Debate spurns knowledge, questioning authority and norms brings change. Sure some posts are silly, guys and gals like JD and El are so intune with board dynamics they know when to laugh off comments. The holier than thou comments are pretty strange, as if we do not appreciate the Mets , surveyors, and assessors. Keep one thing in mind though, history has been rewritten many times, reclassing of hurricanes, tornados has taken place because of somebody questioning authority. Think ORH 53 being a 4 not a 5 is not significant, check the PPT on BOX's own web site that states it should have be classed a 5. All I am saying is we debate, we question, we learn, have an issue with that bookmark www.boringagreementwitheverything.com I don't really care about this all that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 It was interesting. (I just edited my post - my tornado was actually an EF2 but it just proves my point even more about debarking, etc.). Even though it was "only" an EF2 it did change my perspective of tornadoes. I found the resilience of the people to be so refreshing and optimistic. I think a lot of people tend to overestimate the rating of the tornado based on the damage. Even an EF2 can do quite a number on an area..... I think this is the big issue... the discussion is great and fine so we can all learn, but think about it. How many tornadoes have many of us in New England surveyed? If Kevin thinks this is an EF4, I'd be curious to know what other tornado damage he's surveyed to make that assessment, lol. As I said in the previous post, I saw the 1998 F3 in the Albany suburbs and that damage looked catastrophic. I remember thinking holy f'in sh*t that car is up in a tree. I've never seen anything like that before and probably never will again. Its the emotions you get from personally seeing that kind of power up close that you assume it must be the worst tornado ever to hit mankind. Again, this discussion has been good to learn from, but its not like we are experienced tornado "raters" that are arguing this. We are a bunch of armchair quarterbacks (myself included) who have maybe seen the aftermath of one tornado in our lives, if that. Its natural to want that tornado near you to have the highest possible rating because its hard to fathom just how much more damage a stronger storm could've done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Glad Arnold posted it's final, man what a year. Hard to fathom, seeing the Munger school mentioned in the assessment hit home here at work, they were supposed to tour here the next day but called and cancelled, when they said why . We are now paying for all 85 kids and chaperones entry fees, lunches and gifts thanks to the generosity of some awesome coworkers here. Hopefully they can come this year. Really tough to see all these disasters weather wise and economic wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnold214 Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Kevin is in Brimfield right now, texted me, actually has a camera with him. Guys he has a huge heart and knows most of the Mets who did the survey, relax. That's not true. He knows two out of the seven. That's not "most". Not that any of them really care what he says anyway... Whether or not he knows the people, he shouldn't publicly call out people for doing their jobs wrong when he isn't qualified to do it himself. Plus, he called people out before he even saw the damage. That's not cool - I don't care how popular he is with the people in the SNE forum or how big a "heart" he has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damage In Tolland Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 That's not true. He knows two out of the seven. That's not "most". Whether or not he knows the people, he shouldn't publicly call out people for doing their jobs wrong when he isn't qualified to do it himself. Plus, he called people out before he even saw the damage. That's not cool - I don't care how popular he is with the people in the SNE forum. Who did I call out? Find the post. WTF are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocoAko Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 I think this is the big issue... the discussion is great and fine so we can all learn, but think about it. How many tornadoes have many of us in New England surveyed? If Kevin thinks this is an EF4, I'd be curious to know what other tornado damage he's surveyed to make that assessment, lol. As I said in the previous post, I saw the 1998 F3 in the Albany suburbs and that damage looked catastrophic. I remember thinking holy f'in sh*t that car is up in a tree. I've never seen anything like that before and probably never will again. Its the emotions you get from personally seeing that kind of power up close that you assume it must be the worst tornado ever to hit mankind. Again, this discussion has been good to learn from, but its not like we are experienced tornado "raters" that are arguing this. We are a bunch of armchair quarterbacks (myself included) who have maybe seen the aftermath of one tornado in our lives, if that. Its natural to want that tornado near you to have the highest possible rating because its hard to fathom just how much more damage a stronger storm could've done. I agree with all of this. I'm not losing sleep over it and it isn't that big of a deal. But as your first point states, I'm curious as to how some people think they're (more?) qualified than engineers and meteorologists who surveyed the damage to make a strength assessment. Debate is fine and discussing what each rating entails is important but "this isn't an EF3, it's an EF4" isn't exactly useful to anyone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 That's not true. He knows two out of the seven. That's not "most". Whether or not he knows the people, he shouldn't publicly call out people for doing their jobs wrong when he isn't qualified to do it himself. Plus, he called people out before he even saw the damage. That's not cool - I don't care how popular he is with the people in the SNE forum or how big a "heart" he has. Oh come on Mike, called out?, where when? This is not NWS chat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damage In Tolland Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Oh come on Mike, called out?, where when? This is not NWS chat. I have no idea what he's talking about. All i said it was a 4 and would be updated later, like Joplin was ..I never once called anyone out or named any names. Anyway..I'll be posting some pics here shortly. I was on Holland road on foot for about 1/2 mile, but they wouldn't let me get to the really decimated area where we saw those videos.. Just the part I saw was surreal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneJosh Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Yeah from seeing the damage personally it was a relatively easy call for EF-3. Above that I didn't see any solid evidence though there were certainly some candidates for EF-4 damage that would have to be judged by someone with more expertise than I. Props to BOX for taking the time and getting the survey done thoroughly. I commend you for not flipping out when you saw the damage and taking a conservative viewpoint on it. As Mike already posted the NWS consulted with a wind damage expert who was on scene with them. Just like we were I'm sure they saw some potential areas of EF-4 damage but after consulting with the experts they determined the damage to be EF-3. Seems settled to me that it was high end EF-3 damage. Yeah, it seems to be. I was lucky enough (is that the right word?) to participate in a damage survey in Oklahoma after our last outbreak. The tornado I was on was given an EF2 rating, and I saw snapped trees (near the base, too) and some debarking (mostly of softwood trees). People sitting in their armchairs insisting that the rating is wrong are obnoxious, to be honest. But everyone's an expert these days, right? Wow, Jake-- that's so cool that you've already been on a damage survey. Nice! Did the people you were with walk you through the process and explain what they were doing-- or were you just kind of tagging along? Very cool, either way. What great experience you're getting there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 I commend you for not flipping out when you saw the damage and taking a conservative viewpoint on it. Yeah, it seems to be. Wow, Jake-- that's so cool that you've already been on a damage survey. Nice! Did the people you were with walk you through the process and explain what they were doing-- or were you just kind of tagging along? Very cool, either way. What great experience you're getting there. His timing was unreal, major outbreak basically as he stepped off the plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Who did I call out? Find the post. WTF are you talking about? Right after Turtle posted her/their survey results and reasonings, you immediately say that it was an EF4 (and that strongly implies that those folks that did the survey were wrong). And you said it before you even personally viewed the damage. I think that's what is rubbing some people the wrong way. It was def an Ef4..and we'll see that upped as it should be..Just like Joplin was I;m heading up to Monson and Brimfield today to make my own assessment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnold214 Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Oh come on Mike, called out?, where when? This is not NWS chat. I'm onto the next event. Bottom line this is an EF3 and will remain that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneJosh Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 It was interesting. (I just edited my post - my tornado was actually an EF2 but it just proves my point even more about debarking, etc.). Even though it was "only" an EF2 it did change my perspective of tornadoes. I found the resilience of the people to be so refreshing and optimistic. I think a lot of people tend to overestimate the rating of the tornado based on the damage. Even an EF2 can do quite a number on an area..... This. I'm not sure why so many armchair quarterbacks in an area that sees a major tornado once a decade feel they are qualified enough to rate it a 4 instead of a 3. That's what I find funny. Also, I feel like I've read that there have been some tornadoes in the northeast that were rated "too high" mostly due to lack of experience in judging those things. I like that BOX brought in outside help to avoid possibly over-rating the storm. I remember seeing the damage from the F3 that struck Mechanicville, NY in the Albany suburbs and to me that might as well looked like a 5. If you've never seen major tornado damage before and then walk into damage from a large F3.... its extremely impressive and makes you want to have them rate it a 4 or 5 to jive with what you perceive as Armageddon. Great posts, and I really agree. When someone has not experienced a big tornado or hurricane before, it's very natural to overestimate the event, and I can see how there could be a risk of New England surveyors-- who rarely see damage like this-- overrating this one. So BOX should be especially commended for taking such a conservative, reasoned approach with this. Jake, like you said, an EF2 tornado in itself is an astonishingly destructive force. And, powderfreak, I can imagine how shocking it must have been for a tornado virgin in NY to see a large area of F3 damage. You must have been like, WTF?? I see the same thing with people in hurricanes-- including chasers-- grossly overestimating the winds they're experiencing. For example, the narrator of the video is like, "Winds are blowing over 100 mph!!1!" when I know, based on what I'm seeing in the video and also surface-wind analyses, that the wind is maybe 50 kt. In fact, chasers are some of the biggest offenders-- they just get excited, I guess. People just overreact to unusual events and class them too high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Right after Turtle posted her/their survey results and reasonings, you immediately say that it was an EF4 (and that strongly implies that those folks that did the survey were wrong). And you said it before you even personally viewed the damage. I think that's what is rubbing some people the wrong way. PC the new norm, geezus, that's all you got? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damage In Tolland Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Right after Turtle posted her/their survey results and reasonings, you immediately say that it was an EF4 (and that strongly implies that those folks that did the survey were wrong). And you said it before you even personally viewed the damage. I think that's what is rubbing some people the wrong way. Please point out how that is calling anyone out? I never said anyone did their survey wrong or questioned anyone. It was my opinion. If folks get panties bunched over that..that's their problem..not mine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 I'm onto the next event. Bottom line this is an EF3 and will remain that way. Cool with that, hopefully there are no more events. All set with tornados, EMLs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Please point out how that is calling anyone out? I never said anyone did their survey wrong or questioned anyone. It was my opinion. If folks get panties bunched over that..that's their problem..not mine Glad they don't rate winter storms. We would be crucified and demonized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnold214 Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Cool with that, hopefully there are no more events. All set with tornados, EMLs. CT has gotten hit hard with EML events in the past - some real biggies. Thurs could be another big day although the setup doesn't look quite as good as this past week. 7-8c/km mid level lapse rates though - very anomalous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneJosh Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 His timing was unreal, major outbreak basically as he stepped off the plane. Yeah, it's almost like he brought the wx with him. Oklahomans will rightly ban him from the state if he does that again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoarfrostHubb Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 I don't see what the big deal is. Novice hobbyests looking at vids and pics on the computer vs highly trained NWS employees. No one will read our posts besides AmWx members. No one on here besides NWS staff can or would change it. Very few of us have seen much if any tornado damage. Kevin was not trying to insult or call out anyone. He can have his own opinion just like anyone else. Folks need to lighten up and talk about it at a GTG or the conference over beers Just my fiftieth of a dollar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 CT has gotten hit hard with EML events in the past - some real biggies. Thurs could be another big day although the setup doesn't look quite as good as this past week. 7-8c/km mid level lapse rates though - very anomalous. I read your paper again after the tornado. Man that is great stuff, I told Kev today but for the grace of God we were and especially him ,extremely lucky that west to east track was not 25 miles south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORH_wxman Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 If you have damage that is "potential" EF4 but then is decided that it doesn't quite qualify, its not as if the storm is so much less. A strong EF3 and a low-end EF4 will be very difficult or nearly impossible to distinguish to the casual eye. It usually takes digging deeper into the structural integrity of the most damaged structures and/or foliage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoarfrostHubb Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 I read your paper again after the tornado. Man that is great stuff, I told Kev today but for the grace of God we were and especially him ,extremely lucky that west to east track was not 25 miles south. Link? I know it's in the thread somewhere within the 118 pages... I meant to read it earlier That was kind of you folks at the museum to help that school Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 If you have damage that is "potential" EF4 but then is decided that it doesn't quite qualify, its not as if the storm is so much less. A strong EF3 and a low-end EF4 will be very difficult or nearly impossible to distinguish to the casual eye. It usually takes digging deeper into the structural integrity of the most damaged structures and/or foliage. Will, did you drive around at all, nobody is talking about the other two, was that near you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weatherwiz Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 I was lucky enough (is that the right word?) to participate in a damage survey in Oklahoma after our last outbreak. The tornado I was on was given an EF2 rating, and I saw snapped trees (near the base, too) and some debarking (mostly of softwood trees). People sitting in their armchairs insisting that the rating is wrong are obnoxious, to be honest. But everyone's an expert these days, right? 1000% AGREED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Link? I know it's in the thread somewhere within the 118 pages... I meant to read it earlier That was kind of you folks at the museum to help that school I am at work, prom, on my IPAD while they eat. Link is on my PC at home. Thanks I work with some very big hearts, lots done here to help storm victims over the years, hopefully the Karma comes back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damage In Tolland Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 This was near Quinebog campground in Brimfield.homes and other bldgs crushed and destroyed..There were wires all over the place in there so i was tiptoeing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 1000% AGREED Your meltdown was classic, just saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damage In Tolland Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 I don't see what the big deal is. Novice hobbyests looking at vids and pics on the computer vs highly trained NWS employees. No one will read our posts besides AmWx members. No one on here besides NWS staff can or would change it. Very few of us have seen much if any tornado damage. Kevin was not trying to insult or call out anyone. He can have his own opinion just like anyone else. Folks need to lighten up and talk about it at a GTG or the conference over beers Just my fiftieth of a dollar... Thanks Dave. I honestly don't know what some of these posters have problems with. The minute anyone questions something..everyone gets up in arms. God forbid someone has an opinion and actually voices . Anyway..I digress.. More pics coming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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