dryslot Posted February 20, 2011 Author Share Posted February 20, 2011 I've let go of this one. Might get a coating or so. Hopefully the next one on Friday turns out in our favor. Didn't know you were a NASCAR fan. Surprising win by Bayne and nice to see the Wood Bros back in the winner's circle. Yes, That was great seeing to rookie hold on to pull it off, We will probably see a dusting to 1" at best here, Next weekend does not look bad this far out but we will see, I was a huge Dale Sr fan and i remember like it was today the day he died on the last turn at Daytona 10 years ago, I follow Jr now, But i don't really have any favorite, Just the drivers in chevys, In the 70's and early 80's i was a Cale Yarborugh fan, I don't know if i am in favor of the style they had to employ today, I honestly think they need to drop the restrictor plate and let them race to open up the track Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 President's Day observations... 6am 0.9" overnight at 800ft in the village 1.0" overnight at 1,500ft base of ski resort 1.0" reliable report from grooming supervisor at 3,600ft top of Gondola Doesn't really seem like elevation had any role in this snowfall last night... this is not fluff either. Its dry snow but you can tell there's some liquid in it. Wouldn't be surprised if we had 0.1" QPF as it doesn't feel better than a 10:1 snow. Temps... fairly consistent lapse rate of 5F per 1,000ft this morning: 13F 800ft 10F 1,500ft 0F 3,600ft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Spin Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Event totals: 1.6” Snow/0.12” L.E. Monday 2/21/2011 6:00 A.M. update: There’s been a steady light snow outside that seemed to start up around midnight. Only a couple of other CoCoRaHS reports were in, but the total here seemed to be a bit higher than off to the north and east. Snow ratios/densities from the other sites were fairly similar to what I found here though. Bolton Valley came in with 2 inches of new snow at 6:20 A.M., but it will be interesting to see what other totals are like off to the south and west. Some details from the 6:00 A.M. observations are below: New Snow: 1.6 inches New Liquid: 0.12 inches Snow/Water Ratio: 13.3 Snow Density: 7.5% H2O Temperature: 12.9 F Sky: Light Snow (1-8 mm flakes) Snow at the stake: 21.0 inches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allenson Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Just about an inch here with light snow still falling. Meh. 11F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Event totals: 1.6” Snow/0.12” L.E. Monday 2/21/2011 6:00 A.M. update: There’s been a steady light snow outside that seemed to start up around midnight. Only a couple of other CoCoRaHS reports were in, but the total here seemed to be a bit higher than off to the north and east. Snow ratios/densities from the other sites were fairly similar to what I found here though. Bolton Valley came in with 2 inches of new snow at 6:20 A.M., but it will be interesting to see what other totals are like off to the south and west. Some details from the 6:00 A.M. observations are below: New Snow: 1.6 inches New Liquid: 0.12 inches Snow/Water Ratio: 13.3 Snow Density: 7.5% H2O Temperature: 12.9 F Sky: Light Snow (1-8 mm flakes) Snow at the stake: 21.0 inches Yeah up here we are more in line with the other two reports... somewhere near an inch. Jay, Smuggs, and Stowe all 1" overnight. You're location continues to amaze me, J. You are likely the snowiest location in New England that is under 500ft in elevation... I never really thought about it but I can't think of anywhere at just under 500ft that gets as much snow as your location does. We should do some research on that, haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Spin Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Doesn't really seem like elevation had any role in this snowfall last night... this is not fluff either. Its dry snow but you can tell there's some liquid in it. Wouldn't be surprised if we had 0.1" QPF as it doesn't feel better than a 10:1 snow. Based on the snow:water ratio found here and what I saw at those other two CoCoRaHS sites, it’s probably in that 0.1” L.E. range as you surmised. I was surprised at how much liquid was in the snow here. I stacked two 68 mm cores and got 21.75 mL of water, well more than I thought I would. This snow had a sneaky amount of moisture for how dry it behaves, which shows the value of getting the actual numbers I guess. Even with as much powder as I’ve analyzed and skied in, it’s still hard to tell sometimes. Are you guys going to be doing liquid analyses eventually at Stowe? It would be some great information for (some) skiers of course, but I’m sure you guys would love to avoid having to guess. I would think you’d have to report liquid if you became a Coop site. In terms of CoCoRaHS, I think liquid/liquid equivalent is more popular than snow. I can’t remember if it was a discussion with one of the CoCoRaHS coordinators or something I read, but the number of people who report on snow drops way off compared to how many people report on liquid – many find the snow a hassle and don’t even deal with it. A couple more sites have reported in this morning: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allenson Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Just realized that this light snow event has put me past last year's paltry seasonal total. Sweet! .You're location continues to amaze me, J. You are likely the snowiest location in New England that is under 500ft in elevation... I never really thought about it but I can't think of anywhere at just under 500ft that gets as much snow as your location does. We should do some research on that, haha. Never seen anything like it, quite frankly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaineJayhawk Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Just realized that this light snow event has put me past last year's paltry seasonal total. Sweet! I'm within a few tenths as well with around a half-inch out of this event so far. I'd very much like to get the monkey off my back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 A dusting on the ground so far, from this "event". Snowing lightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Spin Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 You're location continues to amaze me, J. You are likely the snowiest location in New England that is under 500ft in elevation... I never really thought about it but I can't think of anywhere at just under 500ft that gets as much snow as your location does. We should do some research on that, haha. You know that’s funny, I thought about that the other day. Following the weather board here as well as the coop sites etc., one notices that some spots are the snowiest, some spots are the coldest, some spots have the best snow retention, some spots build the deepest snowpack, some spots are windiest, etc. Of course with the high elevation stations around here, this spot is none of those, and really doesn’t have much of a claim to fame. There’s certainly nothing exceptional about this location in any one parameter compared to all the surrounding locations in such a varied, mountainous locale, but then I began to ponder like you about what other area under 500 feet in elevation gets as much snow as we see here. The only places that I could immediately think of would be in the lake effect zones off to our west in New York, which certainly do get more snow, but I’m not sure of the elevations. Some of them are pretty low elevation I bet. Perhaps for New England under 500’ though, this stretch in the Winooski Valley could be the spot for snowfall with the unique mixture of east side/west side meteorological characteristics, wind protection, etc. There’s certainly something to it, especially when it’s one of the first things my next door neighbor mentioned to me when we moved in here, along with the observations you’ve made in your trips through here. The unique properties of this spot are certainly part of what keeps me inspired to maintain the rigorous snowfall records. Snowfall update – we’ve got a couple more tenths on the board since my 6:00 A.M. report with continued light snowfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreaves Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Just about an inch here with light snow still falling. Meh. 11F. That's a pretty good summation for here too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simpsonsbuff Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Old prof's dandruff 1.5 inch... Old man winter's less... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Based on the snow:water ratio found here and what I saw at those other two CoCoRaHS sites, it’s probably in that 0.1” L.E. range as you surmised. I was surprised at how much liquid was in the snow here. I stacked two 68 mm cores and got 21.75 mL of water, well more than I thought I would. This snow had a sneaky amount of moisture for how dry it behaves, which shows the value of getting the actual numbers I guess. Even with as much powder as I’ve analyzed and skied in, it’s still hard to tell sometimes. Are you guys going to be doing liquid analyses eventually at Stowe? It would be some great information for (some) skiers of course, but I’m sure you guys would love to avoid having to guess. I would think you’d have to report liquid if you became a Coop site. In terms of CoCoRaHS, I think liquid/liquid equivalent is more popular than snow. I can’t remember if it was a discussion with one of the CoCoRaHS coordinators or something I read, but the number of people who report on snow drops way off compared to how many people report on liquid – many find the snow a hassle and don’t even deal with it. A couple more sites have reported in this morning: We would like to start doing liquid precipitation, too. That one is going to be harder to accomplish on a regular basis though... however, we would need to do it in order to get involved with CoCoRAHS or as a COOP. I'm currently leaning towards CoCoRAHS and think that's where we'll end up for next season hopefully. And regarding your location, to me its not only the snowfall, its the melted liquid precipitation. You get more than BTV and MPV and your liquid does match the snowfall... like last night, it looks like you got twice as much liquid as other reporting areas. The mountains really wring that stuff out. Edit... I do see 2" at MRG and 1-3" at Sugarbush, so looks like south of here along the Green Mtn spine there was a bit more snowfall from Bolton Valley to Sugarbush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Never seen anything like it, quite frankly. Yeah, it is an amazing location for snowfall. I can vouch for it though... it is legit. I drove through there for 6 years on my way from BTV or Richmond to Stowe, and while I don't know exactly where he lives, I'm pretty sure I know what road he's on. Even if it is not snowing anywhere else, it'll be snowing within a mile eitherside of where J.Spin lives. Its always the first area to break out in snowfall and the last to see the snow quit (thanks to orographics). If you drew a line from each summit along the Green Mountain Spine, where that line crosses the Winooski Valley is exactly where J.Spin lives. I've lived either side of that line by a few miles and the snowfall is good, but not as good as it is directly under the spine axis. If it is snowing everywhere, its snowing harder in that area of the Winooski Valley... and if its not snowing elsewhere, that doesn't mean it isn't snowing along that mile of the Winooski Valley. That climate location is just amazing to me... how the topography comes together to create a perfect maximum of snowfall in probably a one-square mile location, is very interesting to me. I bet of all the reporting stations in New England with diligent measuring, J.Spin is probably close to one of the highest in snowfall each season even though his elevation is only 495ft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mica Vim Toot Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 You are likely the snowiest location in New England that is under 500ft in elevation... I never really thought about it but I can't think of anywhere at just under 500ft that gets as much snow as your location does. We should do some research on that, haha. Heh. Vim Toot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mica Vim Toot Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Never seen anything like it, quite frankly. Heh. Vim Toot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mica Vim Toot Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Yeah, it is an amazing location for snowfall. I can vouch for it though... it is legit. Even if it is not snowing anywhere else, it'll be snowing within a mile eitherside of where J.Spin lives. ...If it is snowing everywhere, its snowing harder in that area of the Winooski Valley... and if its not snowing elsewhere, that doesn't mean it isn't snowing along that mile of the Winooski Valley. I bet of all the reporting stations in New England with diligent measuring, J.Spin is probably close to one of the highest in snowfall each season even though his elevation is only 495ft. Diligent is a polite way to put it. 10 of the 33 "events" listed are 0.6" or less. Do that Oct-May and, voila! Vim Toot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaineJayhawk Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Diligent is a polite way to put it. 10 of the 33 "events" listed are 0.6" or less. Do that Oct-May and, voila! Vim Toot Snowfall is snowfall, whether half an inch or two feet. If it is 0.1" or above, I record it. I'm in awe (and hvy hvy jealous) over J.Spin's snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mica Vim Toot Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Snowfall is snowfall, whether half an inch or two feet. If it is 0.1" or above, I record it. I'm in awe (and hvy hvy jealous) over J.Spin's snow. A spruce bough nearby sheds its load. 0.2"! Vim Toot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 A spruce bough nearby sheds its load. 0.2"! Vim Toot Haha, snow is snow, Vim Toot. You're supposed to record all the snow that falls, how else do you figure out how much snow falls? Climate stations and co-ops aren't just like, ah well its only a half inch, lets record a zero. Also that's part of the climate of this area... we get A LOT of 1" or less dustings from orographic snow showers. The lower elevations around the Green Mountain Spine may average 120" or more in spots, and a lot of that comes from nickle and dime stuff that is under 2-3". I mean, last year when I lived in Richmond, VT on the western slope, I think I woke up to at least .1" every single morning during the month of January. The snowfall is high in this area not because we jackpot in every storm, but because of the consistent orographic dustings that seem to happen 5 nights per week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j24vt Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 0.7" over night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mica Vim Toot Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Haha, snow is snow, Vim Toot. You're supposed to record all the snow that falls, how else do you figure out how much snow falls? Climate stations and co-ops aren't just like, ah well its only a half inch, lets record a zero. Yes, sure. But shouldn't it be snow that falls from the sky? You're very diplomatic, PF. I'm not. I salute you! Vim Toot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Yes, sure. But shouldn't it be snow that falls from the sky? You're very diplomatic, PF. I'm not. I salute you! Vim Toot! Haha, I just enjoy talking about the climate of NNE. I've lived on both sides of the Spine, within a few miles of the actual geographic spine, and you get your high seasonal totals by counting up all these .5", 1", 2" snowfalls. They don't really do anything to the snowpack but it counts as seasonal snowfall... at the very least its nice to brush snow off the car every morning. This is why Allenson has recieved less snowfall that probably J.Spin, me, and j24vt as far as a seasonal snowfall, but he has more on the ground right now than all three of us. The numbers look great on paper, but a lot of it is pure fluff that doesn't do anything for a snowpack. The only real "storm" that the upslope regions have had that others haven't, is that early December upslope event where I had 19" over a 3 day period (I think J had 20-21", and j24vt 17"?)... that event also put down 3 feet on the western slope in Underhill/West Bolton. Unfortunately our 14" snowpack from that was wiped out to 3" thanks to a thaw soon after, so we could've had a nice foot or more of snowpack than other areas, but alas that was not to be. That storm and a lot of our nickle and dime dustings (and a handful of the surprise 3-4" overnight events) makes up our seasonal snowfall lead over a lot of other areas. But it does nothing for our snowpack so a lot of places actually have more snow on the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Snow has ended so just took my final measurements on our snow boards: 3,000ft...2" NEW...48" DEPTH 1,500ft...1" NEW...24" DEPTH Had 1" down at 800ft in town.... we round to the nearest inch on the snow boards, but actual amounts were 1.4" at 1,500ft, and 1.9" at 3,000ft. We lost around 12" of snow depth at 3,000ft and 8" at 1,500ft from the thaw... there was some melting, but I bet the majority of the loss was just settling and compaction of the snow. The last 6 weeks worth of snowfall had just piled up and piled up and never got a chance to truly settle. Now we've got a rock hard natural snow glacier of 2-4 feet between 1,500-3,000ft... with the stake at 3,700ft at 62" so still over 5 feet on the ground up high. We are now at 230" on the season on the upper mountain (measurements starting November 1st)... 264" if you count the 34" from October that was recorded at the Mansfield co-op. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dryslot Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Dusting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Looking at the co-op observations from this morning... the western slope locations and areas closer to the spine did better than everywhere else. Highest amounts are 2" at Enosburg and Jeffersonville, with 1.8" at Hanksville (all three spots are western slope locations). That matches with J.Spin's reading from this morning in that 1.5-2" range as he is falls into that western slope/upslope enhancement crowd. STATION PRECIP TEMPERATURE PRESENT SNOW 24 HRS MAX MIN CUR WEATHER NEW TOTAL SWE ...VERMONT... ...ADDISON COUNTY... SOUTH LINCOLN MIDDLEBURY ARPT 21 10 13 ...CALEDONIA COUNTY... ST JOHNSBURY MUSEUM 0.05 20 9 12 SUTTON 0.05 18 5 7 LIGHT SNOW 0.5 18 SUTTON 0.04 16 3 8 LIGHT SNOW 0.4 16 WALDEN T 11 0 4 CLOUDY T 29 ...CHITTENDEN COUNTY... BURLINGTON INTL ARP 0.08 20 10 12 11 HANKSVILLE 0.01 17 7 9 1.8 17 ESSEX JUNCTION ...ESSEX COUNTY VT... EAST HAVEN GALLUP MILLS 19 5 8 GILMAN 0.01 0.2 ISLAND POND 0.03 15 4 7 CLOUDY 0.5 16 ISLAND POND AIRPORT 15 3 9 ...FRANKLIN COUNTY VT... ENOSBURG FALLS 2 T 16 7 8 2.0 22 SAINT ALBANS ... GRAND ISLE COUNTY VT... SOUTH HERO NEPP 23 14 15 ...LAMOILLE COUNTY... JEFFERSONVILLE 0.09 10 CLOUDY 2.0 21 EDEN MORRISVILLE ARPT T 19 9 12 ...ORANGE COUNTY... BROOKFIELD 0.00 18 2 6 CLOUDY CHELSEA 0.03 19 4 9 SNOW SHWRS 0.5 24 CORINTH 0.04 18 6 11 LIGHT SNOW 0.8 24 UNION VILLAGE DAM ...ORLEANS COUNTY... IRASBURG JAY PEAK 0.05 10 2 4 CLOUDY 1.0 44 NEWPORT 0.01 14 7 8 SNOW GRAINS 0.2 20 ...RUTLAND COUNTY... DANBY FOUR CORNERS RUTLAND 0.03 21 12 14 SNOW SHWRS 1.4 16 RUTLAND SOUTHERN VT 0.00 19 9 12 ...WASHINGTON COUNTY... KNAPP STATE ARPT 0.04 19 6 10 MONTPELIER 0.10 23 10 13 LIGHT SNOW 1.0 9 NORTHFIELD 0.05 24 12 13 1.0 12 PLAINFIELD WAITSFIELD WORCESTER 0.04 18 6 10 SNOW SHWRS 0.6 11 ...WINDSOR COUNTY... BETHEL 0.06 27 10 15 0.7 16 CAVENDISH N HARTLAND RES N SPRINGFIELD RES ROCHESTER 0.02 26 9 13 0.5 13 SPRINGFIELD AIRPORT T 26 11 16 WOODSTOCK 0.01 26 11 15 LIGHT SNOW 0.2 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powderfreak Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Here's the snow depth plot at the cooperative observer stake. Average year? I think so. We are dead on average for this date in terms of snow depth on the upper mountain. We are also on pace for average in terms of snowfall... 230" out of an average of 330" by ski season's end, so we should have another 100" coming if this average train continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Spin Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 The snowfall is high in this area not because we jackpot in every storm, but because of the consistent orographic dustings that seem to happen 5 nights per week. I think we’ve actually had the debate before on the board (back on eastern I believe) about people’s preference for dense synoptic snows vs. lake effect/mountain upslope fluff. Some folks scoff at the fluffy stuff and don’t even call it snow because it doesn’t add much to the snowpack. Some folks call the small events with less than an inch of snowfall “nuisance snow” and don’t even measure them. Some folks will say that the snowfall total for a storm should only be taken at the end of the storm, after the snow has stopped. Those thoughts and practices are not necessarily scientific, but they’re certainly fun to debate and a bit more understandable in places that get snow from solely synoptic storms. Trying to integrate some of those concepts into snow measurement in the mountains or lake effect belts would be quite different however, where many days of miniscule snowfalls occur, and the upslope snow from a storm may linger for a week. We had one meteorological retrograding upper level low/upslope event this season that spanned nine days (12/2/2010 – 12/10/2010) and ultimately deposited 23.4 inches of snow in this location. It’s an extreme example, but a good one because people familiar with mostly synoptic storms would certainly scoff at it being thought of as a two foot storm. Waiting the nine days until the storm was “over” to record the snow total would be very curious in that case. I have the snowfall recorded for this location broken out into each meteorological event in my signature, and some events are quite small, but in j24vt’s daily snowfall data in his signature it’s easier to see the trend of what happens each day. There’s no question that it takes diligence to follow this stuff – I can remember Powderfreak talking about how the number of days during the snowfall season with snowfall actually outweighed the number of days without snowfall (he may recall what the ratio was). That’s a different environment than what many people are used to in the winter, so the amount of snowfall recording and the numbers involved are certainly a different animal as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MainePhotog Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Nice little "over performer". Measured 1.50" of fluff. West Port Island, just to my east, measured 3" according to WGME at noon. 22.3°F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allenson Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I've lived on both sides of the Spine, within a few miles of the actual geographic spine, and you get your high seasonal totals by counting up all these .5", 1", 2" snowfalls. They don't really do anything to the snowpack but it counts as seasonal snowfall... at the very least its nice to brush snow off the car every morning. This is why Allenson has recieved less snowfall that probably J.Spin, me, and j24vt as far as a seasonal snowfall, but he has more on the ground right now than all three of us. The numbers look great on paper, but a lot of it is pure fluff that doesn't do anything for a snowpack. Oh yeah, as a co-op person, I measure down to the tenth of an inch of snow. And we'll certainly get into a pattern even on this side of the mountains that we get a tenth or so everynight.... And yes, it adds up over the course of a winter. As for snowpack retention--that's our specialty here. We don't torch anywhere near the way western VT does (like last week), we decouple pretty well and dip below freezing quicker and for longer than the other side. I'd almost guarantee that our cumulative hours <32 over the course of a winter are considerably more here than it is over yonder (ya know, below 2000', say). It's the only way I can explain my 77.7" of snow this year with 24" of that on the ground and Hanksville almost double that at 141" of snow with only 17" on the ground. As for frequency, we do pretty well here too. 27 out of 31 days in January 2011, I recorded a trace of snow or more and 13 out of 21 so far here in February. I'm within a few tenths as well with around a half-inch out of this event so far. I'd very much like to get the monkey off my back. I'd be mighty surprised if you didn't. Still a ways to go yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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