Reconsider majoring in meteorology!

[LocoAko]

graduate courses are a joke compared to what you are put through in an undergraduate curriculum.

Really? I've always heard the opposite, that they are much harder.

Also, as you know, the calc courses offered by the math department is much different then the actual applied equations of an advanced level met course. Of course the theory is the same, but when it is actually applied to something that makes physical sense (as opposed to just solving problems), it is much easier.

FWIW, i sucked horribly in my undergraduate math classes, but was able to maintain decent grades in my met courses. Went on for my masters and my GPA went up by a full point.

Yeah, this is definitely true. Having a physical basis to apply these things to really makes a difference instead of sitting in a room full of engineering students solving actual problems.

[tornadojay]

Yeah I think its a given if you are a Met you do poorly in calc. I got a C in calc 1, a C- in calc 2 and Calc 3.

and then there's Differential Equations, which was just insanity..

[catoctin wx]

Really? I've always heard the opposite, that they are much harder.

in my experience, the classes just go deeper into the material, but by then you have such a good grasp on the topics that it really isn't that new. The material is harder than undergrad, but because you have seen most of it already, you are able to do better.

Also, many undergrad classes (especially in the first 2 years) are weed-out courses. In grad school the profs are really good about helping you out and making sure that you succeed.

[Ellinwood]

in my experience, the classes just go deeper into the material, but by then you have such a good grasp on the topics that it really isn't that new. The material is harder than undergrad, but because you have seen most of it already, you are able to do better.

Also, many undergrad classes (especially in the first 2 years) are weed-out courses. In grad school the profs are really good about helping you out and making sure that you succeed.

The grad classes can be easier or harder, depending on what kind of study habits and mental retention you have. Most of it is old stuff rehashed and more deeply investigated. The classes you take can also make a big difference, which are tailored to which part of meteorology you want to concentrate in.

What kind of GPA got you into your grad. program, if you don't mind me asking? I only ask because I had a 3.31 GPA (and something like 28 or 29 GRE), and I struggled getting into grad school. Of course, part of it was the fact that last year was one of the hardest years to try to get into grad school. When I applied in fall 2009, most colleges had cut back on the number of paid graduates. For instance, SUNY Albany cut their incoming RA/TA positions in half, and I was 2nd in line on the waiting list, so I got screwed over there Any other year before that and I would have gotten in.

[Msalgado]

The grad classes can be easier or harder, depending on what kind of study habits and mental retention you have. Most of it is old stuff rehashed and more deeply investigated. The classes you take can also make a big difference, which are tailored to which part of meteorology you want to concentrate in.

What kind of GPA got you into your grad. program, if you don't mind me asking? I only ask because I had a 3.31 GPA (and something like 28 or 29 GRE), and I struggled getting into grad school. Of course, part of it was the fact that last year was one of the hardest years to try to get into grad school. When I applied in fall 2009, most colleges had cut back on the number of paid graduates. For instance, SUNY Albany cut their incoming RA/TA positions in half, and I was 2nd in line on the waiting list, so I got screwed over there Any other year before that and I would have gotten in.

By half? I guess those are the first type of positions to go during budget cuts. I will be done in about a year and a half (with a GPA upwards of 3.5 if all goes well) so I'm hoping that grad school prospects won't be dim for me. As I stated earlier though, I'm not dead set on atmospheric sciences any longer.

Where did you end up and how many applications did you put out if you don't mind me asking?

[Msalgado]

My comment wasn't directed at you, fwiw. I understood what you meant. And yes, I agree with your post. Best of luck to you and congrats for going back!

Thanks! I thought it would be harder than it actually has been but it turns out that having a supportive family combined with 10 years more experience than the average student around you actually gives you a bit of a leg up on the situation.

[catoctin wx]

The grad classes can be easier or harder, depending on what kind of study habits and mental retention you have. Most of it is old stuff rehashed and more deeply investigated. The classes you take can also make a big difference, which are tailored to which part of meteorology you want to concentrate in.

What kind of GPA got you into your grad. program, if you don't mind me asking? I only ask because I had a 3.31 GPA (and something like 28 or 29 GRE), and I struggled getting into grad school. Of course, part of it was the fact that last year was one of the hardest years to try to get into grad school. When I applied in fall 2009, most colleges had cut back on the number of paid graduates. For instance, SUNY Albany cut their incoming RA/TA positions in half, and I was 2nd in line on the waiting list, so I got screwed over there Any other year before that and I would have gotten in.

agree completely on the first paragraph. The classes that were rehashing some of the older stuff, just in more detail (dynamics, thermo, synoptic, etc) were pretty easy. The ones that were totally new (Satellite and Remote Sensing, 2 tough radiation courses) were a struggle.

I don't mind posting my GPA for both. Admittedly I did not do that well in undergrad. I got my ass severly kicked by the math department. I ended up with a 2.81 total GPA and something a bit higher for my in-major GPA (can't seem to pull that one up online). I got into grad school not on my grades, but on my networking skills. Some friends set me up with some meetings for grad school advisors at an AMS meeting and I was able to impress one enough in person to accept me into the program. I finished my grad school with a 3.69 GPA.

[Ellinwood]

By half? I guess those are the first type of positions to go during budget cuts. I will be done in about a year and a half (with a GPA upwards of 3.5 if all goes well) so I'm hoping that grad school prospects won't be dim for me. As I stated earlier though, I'm not dead set on atmospheric sciences any longer.

Where did you end up and how many applications did you put out if you don't mind me asking?

Yeah, the paid positions at SUNY Albany went from 12 down to 6 for fall 2009. Don't know what it was this year. 3.5 should be more than enough. I applied to four schools in total (NC State, SUNY Albany, Penn State and Univerisity of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign) and only got accepted to NC State (without funding no less!). It was a tough year for met majors.

Thanks for sharing the info, catocin. Networking does help a lot as well if you can talk to the right people

[catoctin wx]

Yeah, the paid positions at SUNY Albany went from 12 down to 6 for fall 2009. Don't know what it was this year. 3.5 should be more than enough. I applied to four schools in total (NC State, SUNY Albany, Penn State and Univerisity of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign) and only got accepted to NC State (without funding no less!). It was a tough year for met majors.

Thanks for sharing the info, catocin. Networking does help a lot as well if you can talk to the right people

I should have also mentioned that I applied to SUNY Albany, Wisconsin, and NC State and I didn't get into any of them.

[AtticaFanatica]

I quit my idea of being a MET after my first year in college. The math I needed was RIDICULOUS.

Meteorology is a branch of applied physics. I'm not sure why it would be surprising that you need a lot of calculus and physics to study the subject appropriately.

[SnowGoose69]

I've never heard of a school allowing you to get Ds in your core courses. I thought it was the same everywhere... I know here you need at LEAST a C for any prerequisite or course required by your major. And while they may not ask for your transcript I'd still wager it is better to have good grades.

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That's not necessarily true.

Most schools don't and most other majors at my school did not allow it, its just that the departmental staff never got together and made it policy I assume, thank goodness...I still managed a 3.15 overall, I never could grasp how I was so amazingly strong in virtually every other subject of study but so terrible mathematically...even many friends I had who struggled to get 3.0s in their liberal arts majors could get As and Bs in calculus classes.

[H2Otown_WX]

and then there's Differential Equations, which was just insanity..

My friend took that last semester and he had to drop it because he got a 12 on the mid-term.

[Ed Lizard]

MHO. Not been to Penn State, but they have met and petroleum engineering. Ditto Texas A&M. Ditto Oklahoma.

If you've already taken differential and integral calculus, differential equaitions, matric algebra, classes in fluid mechanics, 2 semesters of physics, know you're various dimesnionless constants like Reynolds number, have heard of Navier-Stokes, maybe have already taken programming classes in something like Fortran (when I was in it) or maybe C or whatever languae is hip now, than you're almost halfway to a petroleum engineering degree.

Starting salaries with a BS, right about $100,000...

Edit to add-

Oh, diff e.q.

Just gotta pass it. If you don't go to grad school, you'll never see it again. BS level engineers use mainly computer programs. Black box. No heavy thought required. Some reservoir types sub-specialize in reservoir models, where supposedly programming classes, and mass balances, and solutions to the radial diffusivity equation come into play, but avoid reservoir.

However, I still can differentiate and integrate the natural log of e to the x. Not that I need to know that.

[Terpeast]

Read through this thread some more. I'm sorry, but here's the bitter truth: even if you get the perfect grades, graduate from a great met school, do internships, make connections, and do all the right things - it's STILL no guarantee that you'll get the job you want.

The ONLY reason I have the job I have today is that IT degree (bachelors) listed on my resume. Plus dumb luck. If a met degree was all I had, I'd still be living with my parents. Guaranteed.

[isohume]

Read through this thread some more. I'm sorry, but here's the bitter truth: even if you get the perfect grades, graduate from a great met school, do internships, make connections, and do all the right things - it's STILL no guarantee that you'll get the job you want.

The ONLY reason I have the job I have today is that IT degree (bachelors) listed on my resume. Plus dumb luck. If a met degree was all I had, I'd still be living with my parents. Guaranteed.

There are no guarantees on anything in life.

Folks don't need an IT degree alongside a met degree to get a met job That may have helped in your case...but it is false logic to believe that is needed in all cases. I'd even venture a guess that the majority of professional mets don't have an IT degree or some other degree listed on their resumes.

[stormguy80]

Read through this thread some more. I'm sorry, but here's the bitter truth: even if you get the perfect grades, graduate from a great met school, do internships, make connections, and do all the right things - it's STILL no guarantee that you'll get the job you want.

The ONLY reason I have the job I have today is that IT degree (bachelors) listed on my resume. Plus dumb luck. If a met degree was all I had, I'd still be living with my parents. Guaranteed.

Yes - this is the point I'm trying to get across. This is simply the way it is when there are far more mets than jobs.

[Terpeast]

There are no guarantees on anything in life.

Folks don't need an IT degree alongside a met degree to get a met job That may have helped in your case...but it is false logic to believe that is needed in all cases. I'd even venture a guess that the majority of professional mets don't have an IT degree or some other degree listed on their resumes.

Of course they don't NEED an IT degree along with a met degree, but they DO need marketable skills outside of what they learned in the met program. Could be engineering, risk management, finance, etc. However, I would say that IT should be pretty high on that list.

[isohume]

Of course they don't NEED an IT degree along with a met degree, but they DO need marketable skills outside of what they learned in the met program. Could be engineering, risk management, finance, etc. However, I would say that IT should be pretty high on that list.

Yeah true, any type of forecasting experience would help the most I suppose. But outside of that...any experience is good experience. Blah blah...this has been hashed out tirelessly in this thread already.

[Drz1111]

I think that people who get C-range grades in calc and complain about difficulty finding a job are being a tad willfully blind. When I was in grad school (for a related, but not precisely atmospheric science field), I helped review apps for our program: basically, they used grad students to make the first cut.

And here's what I learned: there are a lot of folks with strong interests in meteorology AND excellent grades in all classes, including the various core math classes.

I guess what I am trying to say is, if you don't have a 3.5 or better in your major AND core classes as an undergrad, you should find a different career, because there are literally hundreds of more qualified people in line ahead of you for grad school and jobs. Exception maybe if you went to MIT or something and got owned in a math class by a bunch of prodigies, but let me put it this way: if its not immediately apparent from your record why you are TALENTED in the field rather than just enthusiastic, you're going to get tossed in the reject pile before someone important even gets to see your applications/resume/CV.

Also, everyone gets good grades in their Masters programs b/c thats just how Masters programs are. There's no curve, no "winnowing out" classes, and showing any effort will get you a B. Employers know this and will take grades in a graduate program with a very large grain of salt. The two things that matter for finding a job or getting into another graduate or postdoc program are: (1) recommendation/word of a professor (2) undergraduate grades. (3) is probably how you interview, (4) is if the guy doing the hiring was in a good mood when he read your app, and bottom of the list is graduate grades. Everyone knows they are a joke.

[DJ Amenzo]

I agree this is kinda garbage. What industry is this NOT true of? In life, we must follow our passions and dedicate our lives to those goals given to us by those passions. If you don't, happiness is unlikely and nearly impossible. Furthermore, in all walks of life the cream rises to the top. If you work your tail off, learn from others ahead of you and strive to be the best in your field by doing WHATEVER IT TAKES (and if that means working 100 hours a week then so be it), success will be in your future no matter what you do.

[stormguy80]

Yes, the "life is hard and you gotta work hard to succeed" principle applies in all walks of life but meteorology is among the most brutal since the supply / demand curve is so skewed. I"ll explain it for the final time...There are only jobs for about 40% of graduating mets. Of the remaining 60% its a safe bet that at least half of them are "doing all the right things" but they won't get jobs. Heck, lets just say for the sake of argument 90 or 100% of graduating mets listen to your advice and do the right things. The fact is still the same. There are too many mets and not enough jobs! There are probably other fields that have this problem too but meteorology is currently among one of the worst.

I agree this is kinda garbage. What industry is this NOT true of? In life, we must follow our passions and dedicate our lives to those goals given to us by those passions. If you don't, happiness is unlikely and nearly impossible. Furthermore, in all walks of life the cream rises to the top. If you work your tail off, learn from others ahead of you and strive to be the best in your field by doing WHATEVER IT TAKES (and if that means working 100 hours a week then so be it), success will be in your future no matter what you do.

[baroclinic_instability]

I also have to LOL at all of the C/D grade discussion going on... I would have abandoned ship if I was getting those kind of grades in calc. The last two years of your met degree involves quite a few advanced calc-based atmos courses, so you'd better know how to do it! Sure, you use very little of it (if any at all) once you're out forecasting, but that doesn't mean you're allowed to walk away with Cs and Ds in core classes and expect to be favored in the job market.

EDIT: Also, it CERTAINLY won't fly if you go on to grad school (if you can even get in with those grades). Most colleges require that you maintain a B average in your graduate courses... at least in atmos.

A bit OT, and certainly not a rule, but universities have a direct benefit in passing graduate students since they are performing research and working on behalf of the university. Most universities are quite generous in grading in graduate school for this reason. They have to have a strict standard, of course, but they also want students to succeed in the research they are doing.

[Msalgado]

Yes, the "life is hard and you gotta work hard to succeed" principle applies in all walks of life but meteorology is among the most brutal since the supply / demand curve is so skewed. I"ll explain it for the final time...There are only jobs for about 40% of graduating mets. Of the remaining 60% its a safe bet that at least half of them are "doing all the right things" but they won't get jobs. Heck, lets just say for the sake of argument 90 or 100% of graduating mets listen to your advice and do the right things. The fact is still the same. There are too many mets and not enough jobs! There are probably other fields that have this problem too but meteorology is currently among one of the worst.

Not trying to be rude but why do you feel the need to explain this over and over? I think most here understand the concept quite well.

[superjames1992]

Ds get degrees, at least that was the case at my university, some of the bigger ones like PSU, OU, Wisconsin that is not the case, notice to all....if you are weak in math I'd strongly advise going to one of the smaller schools, they tend not to have the C or C- requirement for core courses and generally are more forcast based....nobody is going to ask for your transcript the majority of the time outside the NWS and even if they do they could give a rat's booty about your Ds in math if your Met class grades were good.

Good news for me... I just got a C- in Calc 1.

NC State requires us to get a C- in our Calculus courses. I had a B going into the final exam, but I think I did pretty poorly on it, so I'll probably end up with a C. I'm God awful in Chemistry, as well, but managed to do well on the final exam and got a B- in there. My other grades are B+s or As.

[AtticaFanatica]

Yes, the "life is hard and you gotta work hard to succeed" principle applies in all walks of life but meteorology is among the most brutal since the supply / demand curve is so skewed. I"ll explain it for the final time...There are only jobs for about 40% of graduating mets. Of the remaining 60% its a safe bet that at least half of them are "doing all the right things" but they won't get jobs. Heck, lets just say for the sake of argument 90 or 100% of graduating mets listen to your advice and do the right things. The fact is still the same. There are too many mets and not enough jobs! There are probably other fields that have this problem too but meteorology is currently among one of the worst.

We get it.

[DJ Amenzo]

Yes, the "life is hard and you gotta work hard to succeed" principle applies in all walks of life but meteorology is among the most brutal since the supply / demand curve is so skewed. I"ll explain it for the final time...There are only jobs for about 40% of graduating mets. Of the remaining 60% its a safe bet that at least half of them are "doing all the right things" but they won't get jobs. Heck, lets just say for the sake of argument 90 or 100% of graduating mets listen to your advice and do the right things. The fact is still the same. There are too many mets and not enough jobs! There are probably other fields that have this problem too but meteorology is currently among one of the worst.

Yeah, I'm not disputing that. You're speaking in facts. I am speaking about having faith in one's future and hopes, dreams and goals for that future. I know all about a skewed/highly competitive market being that I'm in the music industry. It's probably even more skewed than the Meteorology Industry statistics you've been discussing. However, that has not and will never stop me as I know my product and personal work ethic will be recognized for what it is, apart from what anyone else does. I also have several other skills and business ventures I've been involved with that has kept me afloat when music wasn't paying enough of my bills. So, that's another piece of advice for any young man/woman that is dreaming of a job in any field; give yourself as many skills, assets, degrees, abilities etc. to make money from as many different income streams as humanly possible and you'll never have to worry about financial stability.

[baroclinic_instability]

I think that people who get C-range grades in calc and complain about difficulty finding a job are being a tad willfully blind. When I was in grad school (for a related, but not precisely atmospheric science field), I helped review apps for our program: basically, they used grad students to make the first cut.

And here's what I learned: there are a lot of folks with strong interests in meteorology AND excellent grades in all classes, including the various core math classes.

I guess what I am trying to say is, if you don't have a 3.5 or better in your major AND core classes as an undergrad, you should find a different career, because there are literally hundreds of more qualified people in line ahead of you for grad school and jobs. Exception maybe if you went to MIT or something and got owned in a math class by a bunch of prodigies, but let me put it this way: if its not immediately apparent from your record why you are TALENTED in the field rather than just enthusiastic, you're going to get tossed in the reject pile before someone important even gets to see your applications/resume/CV.

Also, everyone gets good grades in their Masters programs b/c thats just how Masters programs are. There's no curve, no "winnowing out" classes, and showing any effort will get you a B. Employers know this and will take grades in a graduate program with a very large grain of salt. The two things that matter for finding a job or getting into another graduate or postdoc program are: (1) recommendation/word of a professor (2) undergraduate grades. (3) is probably how you interview, (4) is if the guy doing the hiring was in a good mood when he read your app, and bottom of the list is graduate grades. Everyone knows they are a joke.

Grades have nothing to do with how qualified you are. You should make the distinction between how qualified someone may be and how well they happened to perform in college. Thankfully employers look at other aspects including internship experiences, student projects, and forecasting/communications ability as opposed to simply basing qualification on grades. That would be silly. I think every undergrad student can name various students who had 4.0's and made the cirriculum look easy but couldn't forecast a lick or communicate with non-meteorologists without mentioning QG Omega/Chi.

Thankfully employers don't look at grades only or I never would have had a chance based off my below average Calc grades. I guess that means I am unqualified?

Moral of the story here to potential meteorology majors, don't quit just because your calculus scores happen to be low or you have a less than stellar GPA. It doesn't matter if you show dedication and hard work.

[donsutherland1]

Read through this thread some more. I'm sorry, but here's the bitter truth: even if you get the perfect grades, graduate from a great met school, do internships, make connections, and do all the right things - it's STILL no guarantee that you'll get the job you want.

The ONLY reason I have the job I have today is that IT degree (bachelors) listed on my resume. Plus dumb luck. If a met degree was all I had, I'd still be living with my parents. Guaranteed.

Terpeast,

I very much didn't want to create the impression that it is easy to move from school into the workforce for meteorology majors and apologize if I have created such an impression. I do remember the challenges you faced a few years back, as the job market was rapidly deteriorating. I believed then and still do that you deserved better and that any employer would be fortunate to have you on board. I hope all is going well for you.

[Quincy]

almost everyone in my graduating class (only like 8 or 9 albeit) averaged C and Ds in almost all of the 200+ level Calculus and Meteorology courses. Not that I did much better, but...lol

[Terpeast]

Terpeast,

I very much didn't want to create the impression that it is easy to move from school into the workforce for meteorology majors and apologize if I have created such an impression. I do remember the challenges you faced a few years back, as the job market was rapidly deteriorating. I believed then and still do that you deserved better and that any employer would be fortunate to have you on board. I hope all is going well for you.

No need to apologize Don, you didn't create that impression to me, so no worries. Things are going well on my end, and I'm grateful to be where I am now. I do remember my struggles a few years back quite vividly, however... so the tone of some of my posts on here may have been a bit of sour grapes on my part. Anyway, thanks Don, and I hope you're also doing well.