ctsnowstorm628 Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Hey guys(preferably METs), I have to write a 7-10 page Thermo paper soon and I was wondering if you guys could help me with something. I am required to discuss thermodynamic processes and want to incorporate sea breeze fronts into it as it is something I really enjoy, but really do not know what processes or variables I should really hone in on. I plan on covering stability intensely, along with some moist adiabatic components in the marine layer Any comments or suggestions would be nice. Thanks guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisM Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Write the whole paper on why fairfield ct is a ****ty place to live if you like interesting wx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsnowstorm628 Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 Write the whole paper on why fairfield ct is a ****ty place to live if you like interesting wx LOLOL yeah I'm planning on including some soundings and such from BDR, HVN, GON, BOS and then comparing them to inland SNE during both warm and cold scenarios, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginx snewx Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Always wondered why growing up in Westerly RI the sea breeze always kicked in around 11 in the summer then retreated around 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsnowstorm628 Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 Always wondered why growing up in Westerly RI the sea breeze always kicked in around 11 in the summer then retreated around 4 Growing up 30 miles to your west, I've wondered the same thing. I've learned the thermo behind it, now I'm doing research to back everything up...using archived BURKIT, model soundings (for biases), etc Cool stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisM Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Always wondered why growing up in Westerly RI the sea breeze always kicked in around 11 in the summer then retreated around 4 Warmth, more inland convective lift? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsnowstorm628 Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 Warmth, more inland convective lift? I still don't get why the eff you didn't go to school for MET lol But it has to do with the specific heat (dq) of water and how it is higher than the surrounding land. Due to convection, the warmer parcel rises over land and when there is a larger source of water with the mean wind direction passing over it, the lower levels cool as the maritime air is transferred inland. As day time heating is maximized, that it when the strongest sea breeze fronts occur. After 4pm like ginx said, the heating over land is lessened and therefore the sea breeze subsides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisM Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I still don't get why the eff you didn't go to school for MET lol But it has to do with the specific heat (dq) of water and how it is higher than the surrounding land. Due to convection, the warmer parcel rises over land and when there is a larger source of water with the mean wind direction passing over it, the lower levels cool as the maritime air is transferred inland. As day time heating is maximized, that it when the strongest sea breeze fronts occur. After 4pm like ginx said, the heating over land is lessened and therefore the sea breeze subsides. Well yeah my understanding is that as that warm air rises inland the pressure lessens slightly so cold marine air fills that space. Kind of like when you have a river system where a bend causes higher velocity around the outside and lower inside. Water and air seem to like to fill in gaps so when that air rises it has to be replaced with something, which is usually sinking marine air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsnowstorm628 Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 Well yeah my understanding is that as that warm air rises inland the pressure lessens slightly so cold marine air fills that space. Kind of like when you have a river system where a bend causes higher velocity around the outside and lower inside. Water and air seem to like to fill in gaps so when that air rises it has to be replaced with something, which is usually sinking marine air. Well, I mean yes and no because inland, the heated parcel still rises, it just isnt replaced by anything but more the same air. There has to be the difference in temperature/pressure on the mesoscale level (associated with the colder water obviously) in order to initiate the sea breeze front inland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Seabreeze fronts are really formed from density gradients. Think of it as theta surfaces (potential temp). When you heat land, these surfaces are tilted up and spread out a bit from one theta surface to the other. On the other hand, the theta surfaces are packed more tightly together over the water. The whole theory of pressure being lower inland is correct to a point, but it's really a density thing. I can't find examples, but search around online and you may see what I mean in terms of the thermal packing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsnowstorm628 Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 Seabreeze fronts are really formed from density gradients. Think of it as theta surfaces (potential temp). When you heat land, these surfaces are tilted up and spread out a bit from one theta surface to the other. On the other hand, the theta surfaces are packed more tightly together over the water. The whole theory of pressure being lower inland is correct to a point, but it's really a density thing. I can't find examples, but search around online and you may see what I mean in terms of the thermal packing. Thanks Scott. We actually just covered/derived Theta E this past week..pain in the ass LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstorm Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Thanks Scott. We actually just covered/derived Theta E this past week..pain in the ass LOL You should probably discuss - and I'm sure you're planning on it - the heat capacity of water vs. land, and what that means for the air above both. As you know, it's all about differential heating which creates a surface pressure gradient oriented from sea towards land. If you put down a one mile wide strip of blacktop in a rural area, that would be enough to generate a "sea-breeze" gyre. I wrote my undergraduate Senior Essay on sea breezes in New Haven ... and it's a topic that's interested me to this day. Love observing sea breezes of all kind, especially those that produce T-storms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisM Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 You should probably discuss - and I'm sure you're planning on it - the heat capacity of water vs. land, and what that means for the air above both. As you know, it's all about differential heating which creates a surface pressure gradient oriented from sea towards land. If you put down a one mile wide strip of blacktop in a rural area, that would be enough to generate a "sea-breeze" gyre. I wrote my undergraduate Senior Essay on sea breezes in New Haven ... and it's a topic that's interested me to this day. Love observing sea breezes of all kind, especially those that product T-storms. Yeah Florida seabreeze fronts do some incredible things wrt thunderstorms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsnowstorm628 Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 You should probably discuss - and I'm sure you're planning on it - the heat capacity of water vs. land, and what that means for the air above both. As you know, it's all about differential heating which creates a surface pressure gradient oriented from sea towards land. If you put down a one mile wide strip of blacktop in a rural area, that would be enough to generate a "sea-breeze" gyre. I wrote my undergraduate Senior Essay on sea breezes in New Haven ... and it's a topic that's interested me to this day. Love observing sea breezes of all kind, especially those that produce T-storms. No kidding!! That's awesome. Yeah I've always had a so-called 'fetish' for sea breezes growing up on the CT shore. I planned on doing a lot with specific heat and probably will look into what Scott said about Theta E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typhoon Tip Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 You should probably discuss - and I'm sure you're planning on it - the heat capacity of water vs. land, and what that means for the air above both. As you know, it's all about differential heating which creates a surface pressure gradient oriented from sea towards land. If you put down a one mile wide strip of blacktop in a rural area, that would be enough to generate a "sea-breeze" gyre. I wrote my undergraduate Senior Essay on sea breezes in New Haven ... and it's a topic that's interested me to this day. Love observing sea breezes of all kind, especially those that produce T-storms. Good idea, Dan', Such an essay should start out with fundamentals, and then build toward the bigger picture. I would also consider looking up the thermal wind vector - understanding how that variable is derived will immediately enlighten one toward understanding why the wind moves the way it does (inside of the Coriolis time dependency of ~ 9 hours for 45N, but that may be too advanced). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 No kidding!! That's awesome. Yeah I've always had a so-called 'fetish' for sea breezes growing up on the CT shore. I planned on doing a lot with specific heat and probably will look into what Scott said about Theta E. Theta-e is different. I mean theta surfaces, potential temp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstorm Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Good idea, Dan', Such an essay should start out with fundamentals, and then build toward the bigger picture. I would also consider looking up the thermal wind vector - understanding how that variable is derived will immediately enlighten one toward understanding why the wind moves the way it does (inside of the Coriolis time dependency of ~ 9 hours for 45N, but that may be too advanced). Interesting that you mention Coriolis here - one aspect of sea breezes, esp as one moves toward higher latitudes, is a "Coriolis turning" of the sea breeze gyre ... with time, the Co F deflects moving parcels of air to the right... such that the surface wind might go from S to SSW to SW. To see such a veering of the wind required ideal conditions (good temp gradient and almost no synoptic flow). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Interesting that you mention Coriolis here - one aspect of sea breezes, esp as one moves toward higher latitudes, is a "Coriolis turning" of the sea breeze gyre ... with time, the Co F deflects moving parcels of air to the right... such that the surface wind might go from S to SSW to SW. To see such a veering of the wind required ideal conditions (good temp gradient and almost no synoptic flow). I think this applies to Australia especially. The flat land there allows for seabreezes to penetrate very far inland without friction slowing it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstorm Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I think this applies to Australia especially. The flat land there allows for seabreezes to penetrate very far inland without friction slowing it down. Yes on inland penetration but not sure if there is much turning with negligible Coriolis Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Yes on inland penetration but not sure if there is much turning with negligible Coriolis Force. Oh yeah on the nrn part, but maybe further south? Either way I can't think of an instance up this way where winds turned s and then sw as the front moved north, but I may be missing some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsnowstorm628 Posted March 31, 2012 Author Share Posted March 31, 2012 Good idea, Dan', Such an essay should start out with fundamentals, and then build toward the bigger picture. I would also consider looking up the thermal wind vector - understanding how that variable is derived will immediately enlighten one toward understanding why the wind moves the way it does (inside of the Coriolis time dependency of ~ 9 hours for 45N, but that may be too advanced). Taking Atmospheric Dynamics next semester, but I can still use whatever I know/research. Thanks Tip! Theta-e is different. I mean theta surfaces, potential temp. Theta E is equivalent potential temp when a saturated parcel is rising pseudo adiabatically and then brought to the surface dry adiabatically, correct? So you just meant theta aka potential temp over a given region? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Taking Atmospheric Dynamics next semester, but I can still use whatever I know/research. Thanks Tip! Theta E is equivalent potential temp when a saturated parcel is rising pseudo adiabatically and then brought to the surface dry adiabatically, correct? So you just meant theta aka potential temp over a given region? Well you would probably find similar results using theta-e, but when I went over this back in the day...we looked at it just from a theta perspective. Honestly, even just from a normal temperature approach would work just fine I think. Maybe you can do your essay on the development and differences of various seabreeze locations throughout the world. Maybe go into the how and why they behave the way they do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsnowstorm628 Posted April 2, 2012 Author Share Posted April 2, 2012 Well you would probably find similar results using theta-e, but when I went over this back in the day...we looked at it just from a theta perspective. Honestly, even just from a normal temperature approach would work just fine I think. Maybe you can do your essay on the development and differences of various seabreeze locations throughout the world. Maybe go into the how and why they behave the way they do? Alright sweet, I'll keep you posted! Thank bud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adk Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Are you going to tie sea breeze fronts into their ability to spark convective events. If so there is some great radar out of Florida where SBFs from the atlantic and the gulf meet up in the middle of the state...some neat stuff to see two lines of storms meeting each other head on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctsnowstorm628 Posted April 2, 2012 Author Share Posted April 2, 2012 Are you going to tie sea breeze fronts into their ability to spark convective events. If so there is some great radar out of Florida where SBFs from the atlantic and the gulf meet up in the middle of the state...some neat stuff to see two lines of storms meeting each other head on. Yeah i'll probably due some brief discussion/analysis of these in a consequence of seabreeze section or something. I agree that thats so cool, especially in the spring/summer. Visiting RSW in July is always an adventure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OKpowdah Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Look at page 90 (Ch 4) in Holton. It goes over the solenoid term of the circulation equation and how it applies to a sea breeze circulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wxmanmitch Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Ugh...I can't believe I'm a little less than 2 years out of met school and I can't even really remember some of this basic stuff like the solenoid term of the circulation equation and whatnot from dynamics. If you don't use it on a daily basis and refresh regularly, it begins to rust very quickly, especially if you're not actively involved in the field like myself and scores of other recent met grads. For whatever reason, I personally find that computer programming stuff sticks in my head a lot better than meteorology equations and forecasting tricks. Then again, I don't think I ever enjoyed forecasting that much compared to data analysis and programming as I get bored with it most of the time since weather is only exciting some of the time. It's not everyday we get a good nor'easter or severe weather outbreak to track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoastalWx Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Look at page 90 (Ch 4) in Holton. It goes over the solenoid term of the circulation equation and how it applies to a sea breeze circulation. Yeah that's what I was referring to with theta surfaces I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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