2026-2027 El Nino

[40/70 Benchmark]

Interesting that we have had two consecutive episodes of El Nino that were accompanied by -PDO (2018-2019 and 2023-2024) for the first time since the 1950s (1951-1952 and 1953-1954). The third of warm ENSO of the 1950s was a strong/border line super event. 

Sound familiar?

1957-1958 did not follow that trend.

I can't wait to delve into the stratosphere and solar analogs this summer....this is not the slam-dunk that many are portraying it to be.

[40/70 Benchmark]

We did have two in the 1960s, as well (1965-1966 and 1968-1969) my mistake....but 1968-1969 was weak.

[Typhoon Tip]

5 hours ago, bluewave said:

We had some good discussions on this topic over the years.

My guess is that the 500 mb ridging associated with the ABNA ridge during 2024-2025 and 2025-2026 winters was effectively pulled south due to the record mid-latitude marine heatwaves across the North Pacific.

So a much stronger subtropical ridge influence than 2013-2014 and 2014-2015. This lead to lower heights across the -WPO region in 2024-2025 and 2025-2026 relative to 2013-2014 and 2014-2015.

So this stronger subtropical ridge influence may have also contributed to the weaker TPV in the Great Lakes and Northeast and much warmer winters than we got those years. 

Notice that the warm pool extending from Japan to California didn’t let the PDO index show a strongly +PDO reading even with the record SSTs off the California Coast for this time of year.  This also makes it more difficult to have a one to one comparison with the PDO readings of the past that didn’t have the record mid-latitude warm pool east of Japan and south of the Aleutians. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Something like this is happening ( or may be ) all over the planet.   I'm wondering if/when the 2023 air-sea temperature burst might redux. This probably has to be verified by more than one source ( Climate Reanalyzer ) yet, but according to below it's at historic high relative to date, already. That curve it just crossed is 2024, 2023 just beneath. 

[michsnowfreak]

3 hours ago, Maestrobjwa said:

Shoot I'd HAPPILY take that one for my sub, lol

It was a great winter here as well. It was like the pre party to a fantastic 2005-2015. It was cold and dry west of the lakes though. 

[40/70 Benchmark]

Looks to me like 1957 is a bit better of a QBO analog, and 2002 a better solar analog....neither one are awful polar analogs, though. 2002-2003 flipped to negative QBO at 30mb and 1957-1958 was right at solar max. 2026-2027 will be positive at 30 and 50mb, like 1957-1958, and descending past solar max, like 2002-2003. I see no reason why we should be resigned to an awful winter....locking in an east-based super El Niño is every bit of a wish cast as anything else at this early juncture.

[PhiEaglesfan712]

Couldn't 1951-52 and 53-54 be considered part of the same, albeit disjointed, el nino? I find it amazing how the PDO stayed negative during an entire triple-year el nino.

[40/70 Benchmark]

9 minutes ago, PhiEaglesfan712 said:

Couldn't 1951-52 and 53-54 be considered part of the same, albeit disjointed, el nino? I find it amazing how the PDO stayed negative during an entire triple-year el nino.

I see what you are saying based off the RONI, but it didn't hit 0.5 again until February 1953....the MEI actually dipped negative briefly in December 1952 and didn't hit 0.5 again until March. Based on this, the answer is "no"....1952-1953 was neutral.

https://www.webberweather.com/multivariate-enso-index.html

[snowman19]

[snowman19]

9 hours ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

Looks to me like 1957 is a bit better of a QBO analog, and 2002 a better solar analog....neither one are awful polar analogs, though. 2002-2003 flipped to negative QBO at 30mb and 1957-1958 was right at solar max. 2026-2027 will positive at 30 and 50mb, like 1957-1958, and descending past solar max, like 2002-2003. I see no reason why we should be resigned to an awful winter....locking in an east-based super El Niño is every bit of a wish cast as anything else at this early juncture.

Only a moron would lock anything in, in March. I haven’t seen anyone lock in an east-based super El Niño on here or even on twitter. Is there an increased chance of one? Yes. Especially if those twin TC’s along the record WWB verify. That said, IF, if, if we actually do see an east-based/East Pacific super El Niño, I can say with very good confidence that it will not be an arctic cold winter, regardless of what the QBO and stratosphere/SPV and solar do. Snow is a completely different matter since we’ve seen 2 record breaking KU blizzards during super El Niños, most recent being the 2015-16 super El Niño which saw the January, 2016 blizzard. Even the east-based super El Niño of 1982-83 had the Megalopolis blizzard in February, 1983. 1997-98 was obviously a wall to wall dud for snow until the first day of astronomical spring in March, 1998, when NYC saw 5 inches of snow, which was the only snowstorm of that entire winter for them…..

[bluewave]

21 hours ago, 40/70 Benchmark said:

It harkens back to what I have always said in response to those who have speculated that this would be the "new normal" as a result of CC driving the western Pac warm pool.

YES....the globe is warming. However, these patterns remain cyclical and mother nature will find a way to achieve balance independent of the mean background warming.....abracadabra-presto!

Notice a difference despite the west warm pool? What I will admit is we likely need to work on that to achieve more MJO phase 8 residence time and amplitude, which is likely still limiting large coastals, aside from the blizzard.

I am willing to bet that the PDO will flip positive by next winter if we do get another strong El Nino, despite the CC signature on the SST pattern.

The new normal has been record marine heatwaves across multiple ocean basins influencing our sensible weather. Oscillations and teleconnections will continue to exist. But the competing nature of the marine heatwaves will allow them to be expressed in new ways.

The next question is what becomes of the record SST warmth east of Japan that we have been experiencing since the late 2010s? I see you are in the same camp with Paul. I haven’t taken a position yet on whether a strong enough El Niño can cause it to shift to another part of the Pacific basin. So right now I am in the open camp since I don’t have enough data to make a call yet. But I agree with you that we would need to significantly weaken it to allow for a very strong +PDO to emerge which we last saw back in 2015. 

The long range climate models maintain the warm pool there into the late fall and perhaps early winter. Beyond that point who really knows. But it will be interesting to see how things play out going forward. Since we have never experienced a warm pool there if this magnitude lasting nearly a decade before. 
 

[40/70 Benchmark]

1 hour ago, snowman19 said:

Only a moron would lock anything in, in March. I haven’t seen anyone lock in an east-based super El Niño on here or even on twitter. Is there an increased chance of one? Yes. Especially if those twin TC’s along the record WWB verify. That said, IF, if, if we actually do see an east-based/East Pacific super El Niño, I can say with very good confidence that it will not be an arctic cold winter, regardless of what the QBO and stratosphere/SPV and solar do. Snow is a completely different matter since we’ve seen 2 record breaking KU blizzards during super El Niños, most recent being the 2015-16 super El Niño which saw the January, 2016 blizzard. Even the east-based super El Niño of 1982-83 had the Megalopolis blizzard in February, 1983. 1997-98 was obviously a wall to wall dud for snow until the first day of astronomical spring in March, 1998, when NYC saw 5 inches of snow, which was the only snowstorm of that entire winter for them…..

I think we could eliminate the possibility of a high-end NE snowfall outcome in that case...mid Atlantic is different since they don't average as much and can exceed their seasonal allotment in one storm given the powerful STJ.

I am with you on the cold...even if we do get a 2002-2003 or 1957-1958 type of El Nino, I don't anticipate it being as consistently cold as last season.

[40/70 Benchmark]

29 minutes ago, bluewave said:

The new normal has been record marine heatwaves across multiple ocean basins influencing our sensible weather. Oscillations and teleconnections will continue to exist. But the competing nature of the marine heatwaves will allow them to be expressed in new ways.

The next question is what becomes of the record SST warmth east of Japan that we have been experiencing since the late 2010s? I see you are in the same camp with Paul. I haven’t taken a position yet on whether a strong enough El Niño can cause it to shift to another part of the Pacific basin. So right now I am in the open camp since I don’t have enough data to make a call yet. But I agree with you that we would need to significantly weaken it to allow for a very strong +PDO to emerge which we last saw back in 2015. 

The long range climate models maintain the warm pool there into the late fall and perhaps early winter. Beyond that point who really knows. But it will be interesting to see how things play out going forward. Since we have never experienced a warm pool there if this magnitude lasting nearly a decade before. 
 

IMHO the default position should be that it will relocate given a strong enough El Nino because that is what has always happened...sure, you could argue that the magnitude and residence of this particular warm pool is unprecedented, but I can tell you what else is unprecedented....ANY type of pattern or SST signature becoming a permanent fixture in the hemisphere (general warming notwithstanding), so in that sense we have plenty of evidence. This is akin to me arguing that the warm east/cold west/+WPO pattern wasn't permanent, which we now know for certain.

[snowman19]