michsnowfreak

Yup. Every Fall the annual search for blues on temp anomaly maps starts once snow becomes possible in October but that color blue becomes less and less important as we get into winter. Huge difference between some warmer than avg temps vs all out torch. It was refreshing how different this was the the last several (I consider it a better winter than '22-23 despite getting 10 more inches of snow then). I'm never one to get too into the whole "drought is a bad sign for winter", but it would be nice if the intense drought in the western half of the country could ease up by this coming Fall.

A November like day today with billowy gray skies, flurries, and gusty winds.

This was my 30th season measuring snowfall. The average is somewhere in the 46-47" range but we had a lot of stellar winters so I'd guesstimate a more realistic longterm avg is 42-45". If nothing else measurable falls this season, my 27.9" will rank as 4th least of the 30 years, behind only '97-98, '11-12, & '23-24. Much like the high snow years don't last forever, neither do the low ones. Keep the ruler ready for '25-26!

Makes sense. Im not expecting a decade long orgy either, but I like the prospects. I am not one who grades a winter soley based on snowfall, I consider all aspects of winter (cold and esp snowcover)...but for those who want JUST snowfall, the biggest worry for non-snowbelt areas of the Lakes is not temps, but a dry winter.

I agree. Obviously cold & dry isnt my first choice, but id take it over any combination starting with "warm" or "mild" anyday. Jan & Feb were the textbook definition of "winter" here. Everything was frozen and the landscape was white. It was not real exciting for a weather enthusiast, but it was absolutely winter in winter. I didnt quote this in the other thread bc I figure we are kinda moving onto early thoughts for next winter, even tho this season may have a few flakes left in it lol. @40/70 Benchmark said "I think we are flipping to -AMO/+PDO, much like the mid to late 70s". I really like this idea. It certainly doesnt mean any location will replicate whatever they had in those seasons, or that no one will get screwed, but the overall trends would likely mean a lot more wintry systems/storms and fun for many. One thing that has always fascinated me throughout the climate period of record is the tendency for very good winters and very blah winters to alternate with each other, both in singular years (good bad good bad) or in clumps (good good bad bad good bad bad good) etc. A majority of wintry climes have had winters that are subpar to their climo for the last several years now, so its inevitable that a change is coming soon. The stretch of great winters a decade ago was not going to last forever, and neither is a stretch of subpar ones. And hopefully the signs start brewing asap.

Its very confusing and what the heck was all that switching back and forth from 1932-37 lol. In any event, while it was definitely a shitty winter in 1936-37, the data in the 1930s seems a bit suspect for MLI/DVN.

We only picked up a T here. Just 0.4" in March, disappointing end to the snow season (although certainly cant rule out a bit more fleeting snow thru April). In fact, I dont do my "winter grade" until April, but basically its been cemented as a C winter for me. Nov/Dec: C-/D+, Jan/Feb: A-/B+, and Mar a D-.

Is this waterford?

A mix of rain, snow and sleet this evening. Hard to believe this is the 10th day this March snow has fallen at some point, despite only 0.4" on the month.

As tcc pointed out, there appears to be a very important M day in early December 1936. Now make no mistake about it, 1936-37 was an absolutely horrendous winter for snowfall in most spots, far worse than 2024-25. I cringe when I hear of it. It is Detroits least snowy winter on record (12.9"), Bostons least snowy on record (9.0") and ranks extremely high on the all time snowless lists in many if not most places. But I'm not sure it should be molines #1. Depending what happened that day in Dec 1936, the true #1 might be 11.1" in 1901-02. However, perhaps it was an ice storm that day, and not snow after all? Do you have access to any old local newspapers? I have access to all Detroit free press since 1837, but I wonder if anyone has access to all newspapers? It would be the best way to find out what happened that day.

Interesting info. While it can't be used for accuracy purposes, it DOES give you the feeling for what were the cold or mild winters, hot or cool summers etc. This combined with whatever newspapers noted at the time gives a rough idea of what the winters are. I'm going to work on a project this year to try and piece together these old years. Just at a glance I find it interesting that there was a heavier concentration of milder winters in the 1840s-50s and colder 1860s-70s, not unlike trends 100 years later.

Picked up a trace of rain with last night's severe threat. Then today's defo gave 0.10" rain and a trace of snow. Temps nearly 40° colder than yesterday at this time.

I found some really old weather data (1839-1872) and was curious if anyone knows or if there's any studies on this...temps were only taken 3 times a day (7am 2pm 9pm) and averaged. Clearly that is not going to be accurate like temps being recorded hourly, but I'm curious how much margin for error the end results would have. Also, does that error have a warm or cold bias or would it be a tossup?

No thank you!

You dont need a big dog to enjoy those conditions. Thats me whenever we get snowstorms.

Quite a turn around in Omaha. No big amounts, but multiple storms. They were sitting at an incredible 1.0" season to date thru February 10th, and they are now at 13.4" before whatever they get today. Although, I cant figure out what the other 2 blizzard warnings were besides today and March 4th. Since they are prone to crazy windstorms and blizzards in the plains, seems like the NWS's out there sometimes overdue blizzard warnings (in terms of how often they verify vs when they are issued).

Honestly I have no clue. New York is one of the only few cities I know of that has multiple "first order" stations. All NWS offices encourage plenty of spotter reports of precip and snowfall (in fact the NWS is in a big advertising spree right now to get more cocorahs), but most metros have one main "first order" station that does it all, precip, snow, snow depth, intra-hour obs as needed, etc etc. When Detroit switched from DET to DTW in 1966 everything "official" just moved to DTW. I wasnt even born so I cant say haha.

Ive never really dug into MLI data before, but now my curiosity is there, so ill play around later with some of their data and let you know if i find anything interesting. I always cringe when people discuss futility at northern locations in January...now, however, is a very legit time to discuss all-time snow futility for MLI.

They do have an ASOS at Midway, just as they have an ASOS at Detroit City Airport still. Problem is, these are no longer first order sites, so their accuracy is no better than any one of the other thousands of ASOS in place across the country. They dont have snowfall observations, they dont have near their equipment that their 1st order counterparts (ORD & DTW) have, and when theres errors it can often take a long time to fix them. (if theres any malfunctioning equipment at a first order site they are usually right on it).

Looks like it was still a solidly below avg year in MSP, but a late rally with 15.2" in March brought 2023-24 to 29.5". MSP only had 1.7" this Jan and 2.0" last Jan, but has already had 9.5" in Mar and 15.2" last Mar. In 2022-23, Detroit saw 15.8" of its 37.1" total come in March.

That's kind of how 2022-23 was here. A rockin' march made what had been a shitty snow season finish just a bit below avg.

Is this for MLI or DVN?

I think a majority of climate sites have moved over the years. Just how it goes. Why? No idea lol. DTW (detroit metro airport) has been the official climate station for Detroit since 1966. From 1934-1966 it was DET (Detroit city airport) and from 1874-1933 it was various places downtown Detroit. I personally like DTW best because it's closer to me but I still like looking at the old data. If you look at the climate summaries in ncdc it will tell you all of a stations site moves and corresponding dates. I know Chicago's moved from midway airport to ohare airport in I think like 1980.

I wonder who does the measuring? Central Park should be the easiest of the bunch. Measuring in a park should offset the wind issues that are common at most airports. Some first order stations measure at locals near the airport that are in a more user-friendly environment (ie a park).

Its really a very easy process. Snowfall and depth are reported every 6 hours, with the depth at 7am being the official depth for the day. However, measuring at the end of a snowfall is best too, so if you have 3 hours before obs time with no more snow coming, obviously measure then instead of waiting. Also theres a few common sense practices - if snow melts or is rained on before obs time, you have to do your best to account for what snow fell before this happened. Also we have all had times where our snowboard is scoured free of the snow that fell OR drifted over from the winds. In any of those cases, it should be obvious to the obsever to properly measure averages and not just go by whats on the snowboard. These are all common sense practices than any observer, especially ones for first order sites, need to be following. Side note - Speaking of depth...i know ive mentioned this before, but i cant believe BOS & ORH dont report 12z snow depth. They are literally the only first order sites ive seen that dont do snow depth. I wonder why?