Winter Banter Thread

[LibertyBell]

25 minutes ago, Dark Star said:

UNFORTUNATELY, too many able bodied people take advantage of the well intentioned programs set up for those who are truly challenged, handicapped or disabled.

Perhaps there never will be a Shangri La, given our human limitiations.  Evil is always lurking, always looking to exploit others, and must be constantly pursued and conquered.  Freedom is never free...

AI = Shangri La?

Only if it's AGI though and it's currently unknown if that's even possible.

Look it up though, if AGI were possible, it opens up a whole new universe of possibilities.

[bluewave]

25 minutes ago, Dark Star said:

UNFORTUNATELY, too many able bodied people take advantage of the well intentioned programs set up for those who are truly challenged, handicapped or disabled.

Perhaps there never will be a Shangri La, given our human limitiations.  Evil is always lurking, always looking to exploit others, and must be constantly pursued and conquered.  Freedom is never free...

The programs themselves aren’t well intentioned since they don’t pay enough for survival without family help. Plus spots in the programs only have enough openings for a small fraction of the people who need them. You would probably have to go to a small Scandinavian country with much smaller population to get better assistance for people in need. But even in some of those countries the programs aren’t enough. Just too many people in need here chasing too few resources.

[LibertyBell]

1 minute ago, bluewave said:

The programs themselves aren’t well intentioned since they don’t pay enough for survival without family help. Plus spots in the programs only have enough openings for a small fraction of the people who need them. You would probably have to go to a small Scandinavian country with much smaller population to get better assistance for people in need. But even in some of those countries the programs aren’t enough. Just too many people in need here chasing too few resources.

Those Scandanavian nations are amazing and ranked at the top of all nations on most metrics.  The US should be treated as 50 different nations rather than just 1 nation and we have many Nordic style programs in NY and other NE states.

 

 

[bluewave]

4 minutes ago, LibertyBell said:

Those Scandanavian nations are amazing and ranked at the top of all nations on most metrics.  The US should be treated as 50 different nations rather than just 1 nation and we have many Nordic style programs in NY and other NE states.

 

 

It’s much easier with the small populations they have there. Each country only has about 5-10 million people.

[LibertyBell]

3 minutes ago, bluewave said:

It’s much easier with the small populations they have there. Each country only has about 5-10 million people.

I think thats how all nations to be, this nation is too big for its own good....most large nations eventually break up into smaller parts, because they are more manageable and easier to run.

[bluewave]

9 minutes ago, LibertyBell said:

I think thats how all nations to be, this nation is too big for its own good....most large nations eventually break up into smaller parts, because they are more manageable and easier to run.

Each state is pretty much like it’s own country to some extent. But look at all the problems California is having with lack of housing. Appalachia is similar with extreme poverty but it’s more out of sight and not on the news every day.

[Dark Star]

8 minutes ago, LibertyBell said:

I think thats how all nations to be, this nation is too big for its own good....most large nations eventually break up into smaller parts, because they are more manageable and easier to run.

Don't worry, liberalism will destroy this country, as have many large civilizations before it...

[LibertyBell]

1 minute ago, Dark Star said:

Don't worry, liberalism will destroy this country, as have many large civilizations before it...

This country spends/wastes WAYYYY too much money on the military industrial complex....if it didn't do that we could have the same social programs that other nations have.

Notice how quickly they dole out billions for other nations and never do it for people who live right here.

 

[Dark Star]

20 minutes ago, bluewave said:

The programs themselves aren’t well intentioned since they don’t pay enough for survival without family help. Plus spots in the programs only have enough openings for a small fraction of the people who need them. You would probably have to go to a small Scandinavian country with much smaller population to get better assistance for people in need. But even in some of those countries the programs aren’t enough. Just too many people in need here chasing too few resources.

That's my point, because of people trying to take advantage of these programs, the people who really deserve the help do not get enough. Everybody would have to act "perfect" in order to have a better socieity. Some of us understand that.  Eternal vigilence!

[LibertyBell]

3 minutes ago, bluewave said:

Each state is pretty much like it’s own country to some extent. But look at all the problems California is having with lack of housing. Appalachia is similar with extreme poverty but it’s more out of sight and not on the news every day.

As in the above post, the US spends/wastes WAYYYYY too much on the military industrial complex and could do much better if we spent that money on our own people right here.

 

[LibertyBell]

4 minutes ago, bluewave said:

Each state is pretty much like it’s own country to some extent. But look at all the problems California is having with lack of housing. Appalachia is similar with extreme poverty but it’s more out of sight and not on the news every day.

and they are food deserts...many of our health conditions, like the diabetes epidemic are worse because of that...we have both urban and rural food deserts where fresh unprocessed food isn't commonly available.

 

[bluewave]

8 minutes ago, Dark Star said:

That's my point, because of people trying to take advantage of these programs, the people who really deserve the help do not get enough. Everybody would have to act "perfect" in order to have a better socieity. Some of us understand that.  Eternal vigilence!

I don’t know what the answer is since everything is so disorganized here. Just put on the news every night to see how dysfunctional our systems and society have become. There are good people trying to make a difference but the system is working against them.

[LibertyBell]

4 minutes ago, bluewave said:

I don’t know what the answer is since everything is so disorganized here. Just put on the news every night to see how dysfunctional our systems and society have become. There are good people trying to make a difference but the system is working against them.

did you see the one about Cigna using an automated program to reject lots of people for insurance benefits in a short amount of time?  They didn't even open the applications, the program automatically rejects 50 people every minute lol

private insurance sucks

 

[Dark Star]

18 minutes ago, LibertyBell said:

This country spends/wastes WAYYYY too much money on the military industrial complex....if it didn't do that we could have the same social programs that other nations have.

Notice how quickly they dole out billions for other nations and never do it for people who live right here.

 

Freedom is not free.  Explain your point to the other nations that wish to take over the world.  As I said, the world is not perfect.  As soon as the US relaxes its vigilence, a long scourge of chaos followed by an unwanted domainting force will ensue.  It is human nature.  Pretty basic stuff...

[LibertyBell]

11 minutes ago, Dark Star said:

Freedom is not free.  Explain your point to the other nations that wish to take over the world.  As I said, the world is not perfect.  As soon as the US relaxes its vigilence, a long scourge of chaos followed by an unwanted domainting force will ensue.  It is human nature.  Pretty basic stuff...

This isn't 1800 or 1900, and US intervention has led to horrible outcomes in MANY parts of the world-- so no I don't buy that cliched propaganda.

Eisenhower knew better and warned of the military industrial complex-- and being the leader of it-- he knew better than anyone else.

https://www.npr.org/2011/01/17/132942244/ikes-warning-of-military-expansion-50-years-later

https://www.npr.org/2011/01/16/132935716/eisenhowers-warning-still-challenges-the-nation

 

In an effort to control the expansion of the military-industrial complex, Eisenhower consistently sought to cut the Pentagon's budget.

The former general wanted a budget the country could afford, Bowman says. He upset all the military services with his budget cuts, especially the Air Force.

Citing another quote from Eisenhower -- this one from another speech on military spending -- Bowman says, "The jet plane that roars overhead costs three quarters of a million dollars. That’s more than a man will make in his lifetime. What world can afford this kind of thing for long?"

In today's government, Eisenhower has a fan in his fellow Kansan Secretary of Defense Robert Gates -- who keeps a portrait of the former general in his office at the Pentagon, Bowman says.

Speaking at the Eisenhower Library last year, Gates talked about America's insatiable appetite for more and more weapons:

 

"Does the number of warships we have, and are building, really put America at risk, when the U.S. battle fleet is larger than the next 13 navies combined -- 11 of which are our partners and allies?

Is it a dire threat that by 2020, the United States will have only 20 times more advanced stealth fighters than China?

These are the kinds of questions Eisenhower asked as commander-in-chief. They are the kinds of questions I believe he would ask today."

 

But, Bowman says, it has only become more difficult to control the size of the nation's military industry.

First, "there are only a handful of defense giants," he says, "which means you can't shop around for a better price."

And companies such as Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman are also adept at both lobbying and marketing to promote their interests.

Bowman says, "they also spread the jobs around the country, to lock in political support."

Sponsor Message

 

Gates has also discussed the difficulty of cutting military spending:

"What it takes is the political will and willingness, as Eisenhower possessed, to make hard choices -- choices that will displease powerful people both inside the Pentagon, and out."

 

Bowman says that some industry observers believe that "the one thing that could create that political will is the nation's huge deficit." Only that might force cuts in the overall defense budget.

[Dark Star]

3 minutes ago, LibertyBell said:

This isn't 1800 or 1900, and US intervention has led to horrible outcomes in MANY parts of the world-- so no I don't buy that cliched propaganda.

Eisenhower knew better and warned of the military industrial complex-- and being the leader of it-- he knew better than anyone else.

You just have to look at the Ukraine to see an example, and China is always threatening Taiwan, and much of the south Pacific.  Nato doesn't pay its fair share, which is one reason why the "Scandanavian" countries might have better social programs since the US subsidizes their defense (as well as the rest of Europe).  

[LibertyBell]

1 minute ago, Dark Star said:

You just have to look at the Ukraine to see an example, and China is always threatening Taiwan, and much of the south Pacific.  Nato doesn't pay its fair share, which is one reason why the "Scandanavian" countries might have better social programs since the US subsidizes their defense (as well as the rest of Europe).  

So you're saying if these countries paid their fair share then the burden could be more equally distributed.  I still think we could have the same social programs they do (if the burden was equally shared), since there is outlandish overspending by the defense sector that doesn't need to occur.

[coastalplainsnowman]

1 hour ago, LibertyBell said:

and they are food deserts...many of our health conditions, like the diabetes epidemic are worse because of that...we have both urban and rural food deserts where fresh unprocessed food isn't commonly available.

 

Did somebody say dessert?

[LibertyBell]

3 minutes ago, coastalplainsnowman said:

Did somebody say dessert?

dessert for breakfast sounds absolutely awesome!

 

[coastalplainsnowman]

1 hour ago, bluewave said:

It’s much easier with the small populations they have there. Each country only has about 5-10 million people.

Other arguments about social programs aside for the moment, the other key difference is that, as I understand it, those Nordic populations understand that there's no free lunch.  In Denmark, if you make 30% over the average income, about $87,000 here, you're taxed at 55.9%.   Plus a 25% consumption tax for everyone - again someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Who's ready to sign up for that here?  Here, roughly 58% of Americans pay zero income tax.  Yeah, I know, 7.6% Social Security and FICA, and local sales tax, but that's nothing compared to what they pay in the Nordic countries as mentioned above.

If you confiscate every last dime of every US billionaire, you could run the country for a grand total of 8 months.  Nevermind the fact there would never be another billionaire to tap ever again.

Allow me to be master of the obvious and state that this isn't sustainable.

[bluewave]

24 minutes ago, coastalplainsnowman said:

Other arguments about social programs aside for the moment, the other key difference is that, as I understand it, those Nordic populations understand that there's no free lunch.  In Denmark, if you make 30% over the average income, about $87,000 here, you're taxed at 55.9%.   Plus a 25% consumption tax for everyone - again someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Who's ready to sign up for that here?  Here, roughly 58% of Americans pay zero income tax.  Yeah, I know, 7.6% Social Security and FICA, and local sales tax, but that's nothing compared to what they pay in the Nordic countries as mentioned above.

If you confiscate every last dime of every US billionaire, you could run the country for a grand total of 8 months.  Nevermind the fact there would never be another billionaire to tap ever again.

Allow me to be master of the obvious and state that this isn't sustainable.

Yeah, their debt to gdp is much lower than ours. So its much easier to finance their programs. As you said, their tax structure is much different. They don’t mind the higher taxes since they get so much in return. Here we get tons of hidden taxes and fees that we don’t get much  in return  for. So people are rightfully angry.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt

[GaWx]

2 hours ago, LibertyBell said:

I think thats how all nations to be, this nation is too big for its own good....most large nations eventually break up into smaller parts, because they are more manageable and easier to run.

Is the U.S. really a "nation"? Not necessarily according to this:

https://www.philosophytalk.org/blog/why-america-not-nation

"The short answer is that too many Americans hate, or at least really dislike other Americans for us to count as a nation."

[LibertyBell]

13 minutes ago, bluewave said:

Yeah, their debt to gdp is much lower than ours. So its much easier to finance their programs. As you said, their tax structure is much different. They don’t mind the higher taxes since they get so much in return. Here we get tons of hidden taxes and fees that we don’t get much  in return  for. So people are rightfully angry.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt

Yes these hidden taxes and subsidies (like subsidies to big pharma and the fossil fuel cartels) really need to go.

[LibertyBell]

48 minutes ago, coastalplainsnowman said:

Other arguments about social programs aside for the moment, the other key difference is that, as I understand it, those Nordic populations understand that there's no free lunch.  In Denmark, if you make 30% over the average income, about $87,000 here, you're taxed at 55.9%.   Plus a 25% consumption tax for everyone - again someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that.

Who's ready to sign up for that here?  Here, roughly 58% of Americans pay zero income tax.  Yeah, I know, 7.6% Social Security and FICA, and local sales tax, but that's nothing compared to what they pay in the Nordic countries as mentioned above.

If you confiscate every last dime of every US billionaire, you could run the country for a grand total of 8 months.  Nevermind the fact there would never be another billionaire to tap ever again.

Allow me to be master of the obvious and state that this isn't sustainable.

The rich should be taxed at like 90 percent on both wealth and income.  They get away with paying zilch.

Nordic countries are far better off and their "happiness index" high scores show it, as well as they get a lot more for their money than we do.

Finland ranks highest on a lot of metrics, like social mobility and lack of income disparity and I believe they also have UBI (universal basic income) which we have been testing out in parts of NY and NJ.

[LibertyBell]

27 minutes ago, bluewave said:

Yeah, their debt to gdp is much lower than ours. So its much easier to finance their programs. As you said, their tax structure is much different. They don’t mind the higher taxes since they get so much in return. Here we get tons of hidden taxes and fees that we don’t get much  in return  for. So people are rightfully angry.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt

Happiness index scores tell the tale, the big boys and girls at the front of the line....these nations also handled covid the best, have the highest democracy index scores, etc.

https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/happiness/

It's like clockwork lol

Finland	7.82	1	2013 - 2021
Denmark	7.64	2	2013 - 2021
Iceland	7.56	3	2013 - 2021
Switzerland	7.51	4	2013 - 2021
Netherlands	7.41	5	2013 - 2021
Luxembourg	7.4	6	2013 - 2021
Sweden	7.38	7	2013 - 2021
Norway	7.37	8	2013 - 2021

 

Countries	Happiness index, 2021	Global rank	Available data
Finland	7.82	1	2013 - 2021
Denmark	7.64	2	2013 - 2021
Iceland	7.56	3	2013 - 2021
Switzerland	7.51	4	2013 - 2021
Netherlands	7.41	5	2013 - 2021
Luxembourg	7.4	6	2013 - 2021
Sweden	7.38	7	2013 - 2021
Norway	7.37	8	2013 - 2021
Israel	7.36	9	2013 - 2021
New Zealand	7.2	10	2013 - 2021
Australia	7.16	11	2013 - 2021
Austria	7.16	12	2013 - 2021
Ireland	7.04	13	2013 - 2021
Canada	7.03	14	2013 - 2021
Germany	7.03	15	2013 - 2021
USA	6.98	16	2013 - 2021
UK	6.94	17	2013 - 2021
Czechia	6.92	18	2013 - 2021
Belgium	6.8	19	2013 - 2021
France	6.69	20	2013 - 2021

[LibertyBell]

26 minutes ago, bluewave said:

Yeah, their debt to gdp is much lower than ours. So its much easier to finance their programs. As you said, their tax structure is much different. They don’t mind the higher taxes since they get so much in return. Here we get tons of hidden taxes and fees that we don’t get much  in return  for. So people are rightfully angry.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

 

Democracy Index, the US ranks as a "flawed democracy" at number 30

 

1		Norway	Full democracy	9.81	0.06	10.00	9.64	10.00	10.00	9.41
2		New Zealand	Full democracy	9.61	0.14	10.00	9.29	10.00	8.75	10.00
3	2	Iceland	Full democracy	9.52	0.34	10.00	9.64	8.89	9.38	9.71
4		Sweden	Full democracy	9.39	0.13	9.58	9.64	8.33	10.00	9.41
5	2	Finland	Full democracy	9.29	0.02	10.00	9.64	8.33	8.75	9.71
6		Denmark	Full democracy	9.28	0.19	10.00	9.29	8.33	9.38	9.41
7	2	Switzerland	Full democracy	9.14	0.24	9.58	9.29	8.33	9.38	9.12
8	1	Ireland	Full democracy	9.13	0.13	10.00	8.21	8.33	10.00	9.12
9	2	Netherlands	Full democracy	9.00	0.12	9.58	8.93	8.33	8.75	9.41

 

 

Flawed democracies
25	4	Czech Republic	Flawed democracy	7.97	0.23	9.58	6.43	7.22	7.50	9.12
	9	Greece	Flawed democracy	7.97	0.41	10.00	7.14	6.67	7.50	8.53
27		Estonia	Flawed democracy	7.96	0.12	9.58	7.86	6.67	6.88	8.82
28		Portugal	Flawed democracy	7.95	0.13	9.58	7.50	6.67	6.88	9.12
29	6	Israel	Flawed democracy	7.93	0.04	9.58	7.86	9.44	6.88	5.88
30	4	United States	Flawed democracy	7.85		9.17	6.43	8.89	6.25	8.53
31	4	Slovenia	Flawed democracy	7.75	0.21	9.58	7.14	7.22	6.25	8.53
32	2	Botswana	Flawed democracy	7.73		9.17	6.79	6.67	7.50	8.53
33		Malta	Flawed democracy	7.70	0.13	9.17	7.14	5.56	8.13	8.53
34	3	Italy	Flawed democracy	7.69	0.01	9.58	6.79	7.22	7.50	7.35

[forkyfork]

1 hour ago, GaWx said:

Is the U.S. really a "nation"? Not necessarily according to this:

https://www.philosophytalk.org/blog/why-america-not-nation

"The short answer is that too many Americans hate, or at least really dislike other Americans for us to count as a nation."

duh. have you met an average american? this country deserves to burn down

[bluewave]

1 hour ago, GaWx said:

Is the U.S. really a "nation"? Not necessarily according to this:

https://www.philosophytalk.org/blog/why-america-not-nation

"The short answer is that too many Americans hate, or at least really dislike other Americans for us to count as a nation."

The weather forums are a microcosm of this pattern. We originally began with one big forum. But squabbles kept breaking out. So we split up into separate subforums for the local regions. 

[forkyfork]

america is a seething mass of ignorance and stupidity 

[bluewave]

1 hour ago, LibertyBell said:

at the front of the line....these nations also handled covid the best, have the highest democracy index scores, etc.

https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/happines

Mostly smaller countries.