michsnowfreak

Cold neutral?

We were due for a stat padder this winter. I mentioned before, but this is the first winter in 10 years that was better than the total snowfall would indicate. The complete opposite feel of a winter like 2019-20, where a record November snowstorm, some late April snow, and a few good wet snowstorms during the winter helped push the season total to 44" despite so many mild DJF days

Thanks! They are fake tulips. My nephews got such a kick out of it last year that I made one this year and sent a pic to them.

In these ENSo threads, weve discussed some of the weird things that have occurred since the nino of 2015-16, so I thought Id share this. Since the snowy blitz of 2007-15, winters have exhibited a very strange characteristic at Detroit. While Jan-Feb stays snowy, some wonky thinks have been happening on the fringe ends of the season. The amount of times in a snow season recently that either November has had more snow than December, or April has had more snow than March, has been astounding. 2024-25: Apr snowier than Mar 2023-24: Nov snowier than Dec 2021-22: Nov snowier than Dec & Apr snowier than Mar 2020-21: Apr snowier than Mar 2019-20: Nov snowier than Dec & Apr snowier than Mar 2018-19: Nov snowier than Dec 2015-16: Nov snowier than Dec 2014-15: Nov snowier than Dec

lol and that is wrong. Central Park would actually be a perfect area to measure snow. A park presents more of the "textbook definition" of a preferred area to measure snow (sheltered but open, less prone to drifting). Many airports snow observers (DTW included) are measuring snow at a nearby more "user friendly" site because of the difficulty modern airports can produce. Central Park is literally A PARK and they cant get it right?

Since 2021, this is the 5th snowfall that DTW has seen 1”+ on or after April 10th. April 15, 2020: 1.3” April 17, 2020: 3.4” April 20/21, 2021: 3.5” April 18, 2022: 2.3” April 9/10, 2025: 1.8” Also...since the snowy blitz of 2007-15, winters have exhibited a very strange characteristic at Detroit. While Jan-Feb stays snowy, some wonky thinks have been happening on the fringe ends of the season. The amount of times in a snow season recently that either November has had more snow than December, or April has had more snow than March, has been astounding. 2024-25: Apr snowier than Mar 2023-24: Nov snowier than Dec 2021-22: Nov snowier than Dec & Apr snowier than Mar 2020-21: Apr snowier than Mar 2019-20: Nov snowier than Dec & Apr snowier than Mar 2018-19: Nov snowier than Dec 2015-16: Nov snowier than Dec 2014-15: Nov snowier than Dec

Yeah, the east coast is prone to that moreso than here. I dont see snowfall turning feast or famine here, but snowcover days might.

I have noticed this subtly for years now...the milder winters do better with snow now than they did decades ago. Honestly, a warming climate is a boon for snow lovers in northern New England, the upper midwest and northern Great Lakes. And once you get down to your and my latitude, while it can lead to some frustration it can also lead to some great winters, and I do not see our snowfall averages falling anytime soon. More worries once you get to NYC, but even there, I wouldnt exactly worry if i lived there since it can snow in Pensacola lol.

100%. Its as simple as can be. And again, outside of these huge storms its really a minor issue. Although today was a great example of that. We were treated to a late season snowfall last night ( @LibertyBell you thought the flurries at the game the other day were nice, it snowed steadily all night last night!). I swiped my board at midnight. 0.5" fell before midnight and 1.1" after, so I finished with 1.6" of wet snow, however my morning snow depth was 1".

I sound like a broken record repeating over and over....most first order stations in climates prone to snow have used the 6 hour method since 1950. I wouldnt worry about coop totals because they ALWAYS should be taken with a grain of salt, whether its the early days of the 1800s or the present day. As for pre-1950 measurments, were any of us THERE to confirm what snowfalls were accurately or accurately not measured? Its crazy to to me to think that some will take a journal from the 1700s or a newspaper from the 1800s at face value, and assume "wow if they say there was 3 feet on the level imagine how much would be meausured every 6 hours".....yet they question these 1900s-1940s measurments that have well documented records by the then Weather Bureau to go with them. I normally dont play the game of finding some random city that appears to have undermeasured snowfall in the 1930s and assume that was everyone, but for every one of those i could post 10 first order stations who data appears just fine. But Im so intrigued by this NYC discussion i may poke around in some of their data on ncdc later.

Most areas got 1-2" but it was a weird event. Washtenaw and all but far NE Wayne county (the I-94 corridor from Ann Arbor to DTW) had a solid 1.5-2". Much of Lenawee county also had around 2", with northern Monroe getting 1-2" but then nothing at all in the city of Monroe due to Marine influence of the east wind off Lake Erie. Downtown Detroit into St Clair shores west to about Royal Oak, in a narrow band, also got no snow accumulation due to the wind off Lake St Clair, whereas west of St Clair and north to the rest of Detroits north burbs had around 1". DTW had 0.42" precip and 1.8" snow. This brings the season total to 28.7", & the 1.6" I got here brings my season to 29.5". What started as a joke with my nephews is now a tradition, if theres snow during Easter season we make a snow bunny. Overnight was a true winter wonderland, but by daylight it was much more sloppy and slushy as youd expect.

Rain turned to snow around 11pm here and started sticking almost right away!

Wow...in Hillsdale?

Very intrigued with tonight's setup. Models making it look like rain will develop and quickly turn to snow here.

I had not heard of black Sunday but I looked up in the Detroit Free Press and sure enough, the massive headline of the 9-25-50 paper read "Eerie Midday Darkness Leaves City Awestruck". I forgot several other things to add to the incredible year of records and extremes. Also had the warmest Nov temp on record. It was a fascinating year locally. ~January saw frequent and heavy rainfall, causing flooding at times. ~January 25, 1950 sees the all-time record high at Detroit of 67F, as well as the warmest Jan min of 55F. ~Winter returned the 2nd half of Feb 1950 with cold weather, and along with it came a coal shortage causing mandatory brownouts which inevitably left people freezing. ~April 13, 1950 sees the coldest April high on record of just 24F ~September 24, 1950 a cold day, high of 46F, sees darkness turn the city black midday, due to canadian wildfires ~November 1, 1950 after a warm Halloween, temps soared to 81F on November 1st, making it the warmest November temp on record. 3.5 weeks later we were thrust into deep winter as the infamous appalachian storm gave us several days of deformation snows and bitter cold. Actually, when recounting the year 1950, it is downright fascinating.

You and I have both mentioned it, but it kind of gets lost in the shuffle (and I know we have all strayed OT on this thread lol)...but the main differences you will find are in the really big storms or the massive fluffy lake events. The difference in your more run-of-the mill snowfalls is negligible, and if its a snowfall on the order of 10-1 to 13-1 ratio with minimal wind, you would probably see no difference at all.

1950 still holds the record at Detroit for the warmest January high on record (67F - Jan 25th) and coldest April high (24F - Apr 13th) since 1874. Those same dates also hold the record at U of M Ann Arbor since 1880, with an incredible high of 72F on Jan 25, 1950 and a high of just 26F on Apr 13, 1950. Flints records only go to 1921, but they too hold the record in 1950, with a high of 65F on Jan 25th & a high of 22F on Apr 13th.

I dont remember, but obviously DTW is usually warmest of the 3.

I will say it again. The same snow measurement guidelines for first-order stations have been in place since 1950. Any station is going to have had multiple observers and likely site changes since then, but the guidelines are the same. To pick out one here and there is irrelevant. I can find tons of spotter/coop data that clearly undermeasures snow by an insane amount, whether you are talking in 2025 or 1905. Dubois, PA is obviously not a first order station, they have a limited data set from the mid-1960s to mid-1990s. Even pre-1950, I have looked at plenty of station data at first-order stations and the snow depth is not just the snowfall added to the previous snow depth. Ive analyzed snowfall in great detail - more than any other aspect of weather (and ive analyzed them all), and i find it appears quite accurate since 1900 or so.

I too agree, and never has hourly clearing been standard, so if that was being done, again, that is fault of the individual observer.

This is just another example of how all observers are different and you cant make blanket assumptions about past or present.

Wow thats definitely weird. I think just like in any other field, all NWS mets/employees are different and maybe the one you had had a soapbox or something. I assumed when you said they tossed it you just meant they didnt use it, but to actually note that "old school" thing is wild. But inconsistency is the key word here. Regardless of what they do with coop/spotter reports, the official sites all clear every 6 hours. The OPL at DTX is awesome and friendly, Im going to ask her some time about the spotter stuff and see what her take or understanding on it is.

Im not sure but probably has to have some sort of lake influence, because again, it has to do with just getting that sifting arctic powder falling in below zero air, which isnt really a synoptic feature, and the sky is otherwise mostly or partly clear. Picture when a powder snow is sitting on tree branches and the wind blows it off and it comes off in fine mists of powder/flakes. Its like that. Thats sort of what im trying to describe, and the sun hits it and makes a "snowbow" of colors. Ive seen it a few times but it isnt common.

I always thought when they said "on the level" it was implying that was the measurement, then they would notate the higher drifts. I definitely doubt some of the totals back then, but I always look at it as having some information is better than others. I use 1900 as about the baseline for when I can really trust observations. The 1870s-1890s data is imo not perfect BUT is a great tool for us to piece together what each individual winter was like. Looking at the data here in Detroit for 1880-81 and 1881-82 is almost unbelievable in that 1880-81 was the most severe winter on record (until 2013-14 came along :)) and 1881-82 the warmest (still to this day). But the Laura Ingalls Wilder books (granted, this was in Dakota Territory I believe) detail this, one book being called "The Long Winter" which discusses the blizzard parade from Oct to Apr 1880-81, and the next book, while not concentrating on the weather as much references how warm and without snow 1881-82 was.

Thats another thing (bolded). The old days of weather observing showed extremely meticulous observations. Again, I have seen some of the old weather log books myself and they are incredible. Many days have a narrative that you will never see when just looking at the raw data (A narrative on Dec 25, 1901: Night of the 24 - 25 cloudy; moist snow continued, heaviest between hours of 1:30 and 4:30 am, ended at 6 am. amount of precipitation .62 inches. The street cars ran all night to keep the tracks open. The snow adhered to trees etc, and made a very beautiful scene. Depth of snow on ground at 8 am, 5.5 inches). Fast forward to today, and you are talking everything is automated with exception of snow, and while most NWS offices work diligently to ensure they have good/well trained snow observers, they are subject to error like anyone else, and often are not actual NWS mets. So this acting like we have perfect measurements today and discounting old stuff is not silly. And once again, Im not sure where this 1950-1980 stuff is coming from. Nearly ALL first order sites have followed the 6-hour rule since 1950 (spotters are another story).