George001

DC-NYC yeah but Boston is a bit different in that average snowfall is in the low 40s, so our area really needs either 1 big one + several smaller events or 2 big ones. In super ninos we don’t usually see those smaller ones, and the bigger ones tend to be more Miller A due to the strong southern jet which often run inland a bit and rain in Boston or go out to sea. Thats why these super ninos tend to be not great for us. Not only do we not get those minor events that add up in super ninos, the storm track when the big one does hit if it does often screws us. It’s basically the opposite of the southern mid Atlantic, they tend to get fucked over by Miller Bs and clean up in miller As, coastal SNE cleans up in miller Bs and often gets fucked over in miller As. This is a big reason why I’m not too thrilled about the upcoming super Nino for my area, but we will see how things play out. Metfan was saying in the other thread some of the long range seasonal guidance was showing a coastal track, I’d like to see that on guidance come November.

Yeah, definitely an early developing El Niño. Early developing events tend to peak stronger, and it looks like the consensus supports a super peak (which does not surprise me given what the subsurface looked like a couple of months ago). The question now is how will the super Nino affect the weather pattern? I’m thinking since it’s such an early developing event we will likely see the subtropical jet activate in the summer, and have a weaker Atlantic hurricane season than typical. For winter, it’s very early but these super ninos tend to follow a certain pattern (warm and wet in the east) so I would think that’s a good starting point. A bit off topic but I did notice a thing over the years where weenie sentiment tends to be too pessimistic during la Nina’s and too optimistic during El Niños. Has anyone else noticed this?

It’s looking more like an early developing east based event.

It’s unlikely it will be a modoki given the warmth already present in Nino 1.2 and the current subsurface structure (hence Andy Hazeltons comparison to 1997) + the historical precedence of super ninos to leak east. Nino 1.2 never really cooled off even during our past 2 la Nina’s. Its not impossible it becomes a modoki, but given where we are currently at east based should be the favored outcome, or at least a super Nino with an eastern tilt.

So I’m curious why you guys think this El Niño is expected to grow so powerful not too long after our last strong event in 2023-2024. The latest guidance has this hitting high end strong at a minimum, given how this event has been developing (already near +1C on the daily in Nino 3.4, subsurface is boiling etc) that seems conservative if anything. The return rate for super ninos is what, once every 8 or so years? My thoughts are this developing super nino is a response to the persistent and intense La Niña background state we have been in (delayed oscillation effect, I know Ray has mentioned this idea in his blogs several times over the years). I was thinking in March that the super Nino idea might not pan out because we just had a strong event in 23-24, but perhaps that “la nino” was a strong El Niño inside a persistent Nina background state, and this is the real regime changing El Niño (that will compare to previous more traditional super El Niños rather than a La Nino)? I have to say, we don’t see eye to eye often but I have to agree with Adam about how this event is developing. He struggled last winter, but he has been on point about this early developing El Niño. It’s more basinwide than east based right now, but I don’t think it really matters in terms of winter prospects. If he’s right about the strength, the warmth will be everywhere (as is standard in super ninos), and it likely will leak more east anyways like 97-98 because super ninos tend to do that historically. I know there has been some pushback on that analog, but no analogs are perfect. 97-98 is good enough at a high level. My top analogs right now are 97-98, 15-16, and 82-83.

Yep it’s coming. This is clearly an early developing El Niño with extreme subsurface heat, I am fully on board with the super Nino idea. Normally I lean against an extreme event until proven otherwise, but like you said them having to adjust the scales…. Have to wonder if the more aggressive normally warm biased guidance has the right idea this time (eg European).

Yeah that’s a reasonable starting point. Super nino is bad news for those of us living in northern areas.

Agree. The facts are fairly straightforward. An El Niño is developing, and it is developing similarly to previous strong and super ninos. If it does become a super Nino it won’t be the first one, and certainly won’t be the last. Personally I don’t think it’s a huge deal, I mean im not too happy about it because it’s an unfavorable ENSO state for cold and snow for my area, but it’s not like the El Niño itself is an actual threat to our lives or anything. 2015-2016 happened, life went on. Same thing will happen with this event.

Update: it’s mid April and the cold is nowhere to be found, my area is expected to be 80 the next 3 days. I’m planning to install my AC tonight. Just a month and a half ago I was buried under feet of snow, kind of nuts how quick the seasonal transition was this year. Very warm start to spring.

I do agree that northern areas aren’t necessarily doomed even if the Nino is on the stronger side, especially the great lakes (I know you guys do better in La Nina’s, but I do remember seeing somewhere that a super Nino is less of a death sentence for you guys than my area. I’d still prefer a weak or moderate event, but the early signs are this is developing more like recent strong or super ninos than the weak/moderate bucket. If it does become a super Nino I would go fairly aggressive on the mild and less snow side, but not necessarily if it is strong but not super and the non ENSO indicators look good (like you mentioned this is key, and is why this past winter was such a good one). Even last winter wasn’t an optimal ENSO configuration, and still was the best winter I had since 2014-2015. The east based nina idea like 17-18 and 21-22 didnt pan out, it shifted from more basin wide to a modoki Nina in the second half of winter. I recall looking in late Jan and being surprised at how much the coldest anomalies shifted west. We will see how things play out, id roll the dice with an 09-10 ENSO configuration with less blocking, so hopefully things break right in that regard.

It’s still too early to know for sure how strong the El Niño will be but the early signs do favor an event that gets fairly powerful. How strong is uncertain, but he’s right that if it does become a super event that would be very bad news for northern areas.

Yep. A super Nino is possible but we don’t know what is going to happen. A moderate or strong event is possible as well.

Agree. Still a wide range of possibilities given we are in early spring, but gun to head given the current subsurface im thinking it probably won’t be a weak event. Still, huge difference between say a moderate and a super Nino.

Hopefully we go the 02-03 route instead of a 15-16 redux.

I’m not expecting it to come back, but I hope I’m wrong and we get snow into April.

Looks like we may have one more brief window and then that’s it, but it would be more of an early spring storm than a return to winter. Seems like a long shot. Regardless, we had a great run, easily the best winter since 2014-2015. Easily an A winter in my book.

I hope we can avoid big warmth, im planning to buy a rest of season ski pass for Wachusett and would like to ski into mid April.

Yep, runs away like a coward. So much arrogance just to be this wrong.

We were supposed to get nothing 4 days ago, therefore I would have been happy even if we only got say 6 inches. Im not sure how much snow there is now due to all the drifting, but it’s easily over 20 inches just eyeballing it. This is the best winter we have had since 2015 and I’m enjoying every second of it.

I just went back outside to measure. This is 2-3 inch an hour snow.

Just woke up to 8 inches of snow and whiteout conditions. Holy shit this storm is amazing, with that radar look 2 feet is not out of the question here. There will probably be areas on the south shore that break 30.

Im expecting 18-24 here.

So much for the canonical front loaded Nina Feb

Is this storm a Miller A or B?

Yeah, going to be tricky with the drifting but I’m going to clear the deck every few hours, going to take measurements when I do so.