NYC Plowing (or lack of) Discussion

[donsutherland1]

IMO, even with worker vacations and some equipment shortages, much more could and should have been done. The pre-storm decision making exacerbated the situation. Declaring a snow emergency in advance of an expected blizzard or large snowstorm (potential for 10" or more) is a "no brainer," except apparently for City Hall. Such declarations set the stage for a more effective clean-up operation. When blowing and drifting snow is expected (as occurs in blizzards), they are even more helpful, as parked cars can be buried under snow drifts, making clean-up much more difficult. One is in a better position when one is overprepared from making such a declaration than underprepared and left to react to events. NYC was caught in the latter situation, much as happened in 1969 under Mayor Lindsay, except this time the forecasts were more accurate than they were in 1969.

My guess--and the continually evolving statements coming out of City Hall suggest an Administration that literally was caught blind by the storm--is that complacency reigned in NYC ahead of the blizzard. After highly effective clean-ups following the February 2006, December 2009, and February 2010 snowstorms (two of which were the #1 and #4 snowfalls in NYC history), there likely was a perception that today's capabilities had become so good that the impact of the looming blizzard was seriously underestimated. With the storm's impact being underestimated, no snow emergency was declared, as it was believed that the road crews would easily be up to the task. In many ways, that thinking is not too far removed from the "new era" thinking that preceded the collapse of the nation's housing bubble, a development that sparked the financial crisis and severe recession that followed.

[Stormlover74]

Yeah but they weren't forecast to hit 40 until at least tomorrow. I think we'll see at least low if not mid 40s by Friday or saturday

But notice, temps get into the upper 30's by late morning and then don't budge at all the rest of the day I've been bouncing around 37-38 - 38 - 37 for the past 3 to 4 hours.

[Allsnow]

They didn't come out at all. Don't you understand? I saw more plows in 96 15 years ago when the snow was even deeper and came down harder and had just as much wind. If you're not from here you don't know the typical procedure for cleanup. The cleanup doesn't start after the storm it starts before and during the storm. There is a reason every single channel right now that has the noontime news is showing unplowed streets and the lack of response.

Bloomberg said on Monday that the city was having a regular Monday that nothing was abnormal. Go watch a Broadway show! Go shopping! That's what he said. He also said we haven't seen big storms over the last 6 yers because of changing climate. Funny because this has been the most active decade for major storms Since they sarted keeping records.

What do you not understand? The city did not know there was going to be 2 feet of snow until xmass night......they where told friday night it was going ots...weather men on air where saying we will miss the brunt of it.....granted 96 they just up the totals....but that storm was being talk about for a few days in advance.....many twp pulld crews off the road beacuse of the horrible conditions...i want to see u drive a plow truck down a one way street in a blinding blizzard...with cars to the left and right.....96 was a little longer process....i believe 2 days to get that much snow.....and correct me if im wrong but you and u pal run around saying 25-30....yet the park and airports seems to mesure lower then that.....and loaders where not just invented yesterday, im sure the city has twice as many as in 96.......you prob are the same person that would complain when the plow buries ur car, as to also complain about not getting ur street plowed yet.......all the side streets need loaders...plain and simple...no plow truck can bust through that.

Also to bloomburg comments acourse he is going to say that...this is the biggest revenoue time for the city....he does not want people being told not to come in.....the econmy is not good at all....so he wants people to come in a spend money in the city.....he told them to go to broadway where there is prob not a flake of snow left...he did not say go to algreeks house.......where the roads have not been plowed....

[Sundog]

What do you not understand? The city did not know there was going to be 2 feet of snow until xmass night......they where told friday night it was going ots...weather men on air where saying we will miss the brunt of it.....granted 96 they just up the totals....but that storm was being talk about for a few days in advance.....many twp pulld crews off the road beacuse of the horrible conditions...i want to see u drive a plow truck down a one way street in a blinding blizzard...with cars to the left and right.....96 was a little longer process....i believe 2 days to get that much snow.....and correct me if im wrong but you and u pal run around saying 25-30....yet the park and airports seems to mesure lower then that.....and loaders where not just invented yesterday, im sure the city has twice as many as in 96.......you prob are the same person that would complain when the plow buries ur car, as to also complain about not getting ur street plowed yet.......all the side streets need loaders...plain and simple...no plow truck can bust through that.

Also to bloomburg comments acourse he is going to say that...this is the biggest revenoue time for the city....he does not want people being told not to come in.....the econmy is not good at all....so he wants people to come in a spend money in the city.....he told them to go to broadway where there is prob not a flake of snow left...he did not say go to algreeks house.......where the roads have not been plowed....

The models were turning to a major hit as early as Friday afternoon on the 18z runs. I don't know what happens in townships. I am talking about NYC. Do you drive a garbage truck plow in NYC or a private 4x4? Big difference IMO. And I am not sure why you act like I am against the drivers. The drivers have nothing to do with this, they just do their job.

Hold on, 25-30 for what storm? Not for this one I didn't. I measured about 18 or 19 inches. 96 WAS 25 inches. Check the record from LGA. They reported a snow DEPTH of 25 inches after the blizzard of 96 and only 1 inch was on the ground before the storm. JFK reported a DEPTH of 22 inches as well. So you're wrong about me exaggerating; the record is on my side. They only reported 14 inches this go around at LGA and 15.5 at JFK. I wonder how much higher they would have been if they used the clear away method in 96.

Btw I have cleaned off my car 3 times in the last 24 hours because of plows and I am just fine with that because at least when I dig it out I can actually go somewhere after. So you're wrong again.

Bloomberg wanted us to go shopping or watch a show. How am I supposed to do that if I can't leave my house? Yea that makes a lot of sense. I guess only the people that live on Broadway can enjoy Broadway then.

And why do you continue to single out me when 95% of posts on this matter are on my side? Why do you continue to focus on only my posts?

In any case, all I need is to have Don Sutherland on my side. They blew this storm big time. Your opinion is worthless as usual.

[Allsnow]

The models were turning to a major hit as early as Friday afternoon on the 18z runs. I don't know what happens in townships. I am talking about NYC. Do you drive a garbage truck plow in NYC or a private 4x4? Big difference IMO. And I am not sure why you act like I am against the drivers. The drivers have nothing to do with this, they just do their job.

Hold on, 25-30 for what storm? Not for this one I didn't. I measured about 18 or 19 inches. 96 WAS 25 inches. Check the record from LGA. They reported a snow DEPTH of 25 inches after the blizzard of 96 and only 1 inch was on the ground before the storm. JFK reported a DEPTH of 22 inches as well. So you're wrong about me exaggerating; the record is on my side. They only reported 14 inches this go around at LGA and 15.5 at JFK. I wonder how much higher they would have been if they used the clear away method in 96.

Btw I have cleaned off my car 3 times in the last 24 hours because of plows and I am just fine with that because at least when I dig it out I can actually go somewhere after. So you're wrong again.

Bloomberg wanted us to go shopping or watch a show. How am I supposed to do that if I can't leave my house? Yea that makes a lot of sense. I guess only the people that live on Broadway can enjoy Broadway then.

And why do you continue to single out me when 95% of posts on this matter are on my side? Why do you continue to focus on only my posts?

In any case, all I need is to have Don Sutherland on my side. They blew this storm big time. Your opinion is worthless as usual.

No matter what you have to plow with it not going to get down a city street with 6 foot drifts.........you said they should have plowed through the storm when that was next to impossible with the condition no matter if u where in edison or nyc.....i said 25-30 for the 96 storm...not this storm...that you and algreek proclaim to have gotten. The big thing in the city is tourisim...not all of its revenue is in flushing ny. Not just ny people go to broadway...welcome to 2011 fred flinstone

What i also think made this storm bad on the city was the fact all this snow came in less then a 24hr period.....2006 took a while for it to stick in the city and the febuary storms of last year had breaks and warm surface temps........you said the models where changing at 18z....that being said nyc still got the forcast of ots friday night....i guess bloomy was not watching the 18z gfs run on friday

[BxEngine]

What do you not understand? The city did not know there was going to be 2 feet of snow until xmass night......they where told friday night it was going ots...weather men on air where saying we will miss the brunt of it.....granted 96 they just up the totals....but that storm was being talk about for a few days in advance.....many twp pulld crews off the road beacuse of the horrible conditions...i want to see u drive a plow truck down a one way street in a blinding blizzard...with cars to the left and right.....96 was a little longer process....i believe 2 days to get that much snow.....and correct me if im wrong but you and u pal run around saying 25-30....yet the park and airports seems to mesure lower then that.....and loaders where not just invented yesterday, im sure the city has twice as many as in 96.......you prob are the same person that would complain when the plow buries ur car, as to also complain about not getting ur street plowed yet.......all the side streets need loaders...plain and simple...no plow truck can bust through that.

Also to bloomburg comments acourse he is going to say that...this is the biggest revenoue time for the city....he does not want people being told not to come in.....the econmy is not good at all....so he wants people to come in a spend money in the city.....he told them to go to broadway where there is prob not a flake of snow left...he did not say go to algreeks house.......where the roads have not been plowed....

Not commenting on the rest because its a difference of opinion...but your comments about bloomberg are so off its literally LOltastic.

[ag3]

Someone is defending the plow job by the city? LOL. It was and continues to be ATROCIOUS. Worse since I have been alive (30 years).

Even the department of sanitation came out and said they are very slow and inadequate because of budget cuts and employee layoffs.

The job the city has done with this storm is atrocious. Period. How anyone can defend them is beyond me

I guess people in the same type of businesses defend eachother. But no one is complaining about the plow driver. Just the City and Bloomberg.

Horrible.

[Allsnow]

Not commenting on the rest because its a difference of opinion...but your comments about bloomberg are so off its literally LOltastic.

so its best to tell people not to come into the city and spend, and one of the highest gross income for thre city...if its right or wrong saying that, i can see why he did it

[Sundog]

No matter what you have to plow with it not going to get down a city street with 6 foot drifts.........you said they should have plowed through the storm when that was next to impossible with the condition no matter if u where in edison or nyc.....i said 25-30 for the 96 storm...not this storm...that you and algreek proclaim to have gotten. The big thing in the city is tourisim...not all of its revenue is in flushing ny. Not just ny people go to broadway...welcome to 2011 fred flinstone

Learn how to read. I said if people can't leave their homes how are they supposed to get to Broadway? So if Broadway doesn't have a flake on it like you said then only people that live there can enjoy Broadway. Nice try though.

I don't proclaim anything by the way, the record states it. I think I'll go with the record then have you tell me what I got from New Jersey.

Now it's 6 foot drifts in the middle of the street? Wow. Impressive. Was that the way it was on every street throughout the city? I like the way you accuse me of exaggerating. The only difference is that I have facts on my side. You have nothing.

Just quit now before you make yourself look even more foolish.

Stop singling my posts out only, btw. It takes away from your credibility to handle an argument. Why don't you take on the other countless posters that agree with me?

[BxEngine]

"Fred flinstone". Lol...how exactly were people supposed to get INTO the city?

[Allsnow]

Someone is defending the plow job by the city? LOL. It was and continues to be ATROCIOUS. Worse since I have been alive (30 years).

Even the department of sanitation came out and said they are very slow and inadequate because of budget cuts and employee layoffs.

The job the city has done with this storm is atrocious. Period. How anyone can defend them is beyond me

I guess people in the same type of businesses defend eachother. But no one is complaining about the plow driver. Just the City and Bloomberg.

Horrible.

To say that the city was unperpared is correct...but to say drivers should have plowed through the storm and to expect to be plowed out on a side street 3 hours after the first flake is a bit unrealstic

[BxEngine]

so its best to tell people not to come into the city and spend, and one of the highest gross income for thre city...if its right or wrong saying that, i can see why he did it

You are clueless dude. F*ck the four other boroughs and the people stranded and dying...Manhattan is open!

LOL

[Allsnow]

"Fred flinstone". Lol...how exactly were people supposed to get INTO the city?

My parents work in the city, for the last two days they have taken the train from hazlet and got in no problem..........

[Allsnow]

You are clueless dude. F*ck the four other boroughs and the people stranded and dying...Manhattan is open!

LOL

How is that clueless....he told people to go shopping and see a show on brodway....what does that have to do with the 5 boroughs?

[BxEngine]

To say that the city was unperpared is correct...but to say drivers should have plowed through the storm and to expect to be plowed out on a side street 3 hours after the first flake is a bit unrealstic

So its unrealistic for plowdrivers to make it through, but its ok to tell 8 million people everything is normal? 2200 busses stranded. EMS stuck. Firemen commandeeering cars to transport patients. Half the subway lines effectively shut down. Both airports shutdown with no way out except walking....but yeah, cmon down to the city. Park ave and Times square are clear!

[Allsnow]

So its unrealistic for plowdrivers to make it through, but its ok to tell 8 million people everything is normal? 2200 busses stranded. EMS stuck. Firemen commandeeering cars to transport patients. Half the subway lines effectively shut down. Both airports shutdown with no way out except walking....but yeah, cmon down to the city. Park ave and Times square are clear!

so lets get on tv and scream armegedon and people are dying...that would really help the situation.....again he said go to time square...not a side street is astoria

[BxEngine]

My parents work in the city, for the last two days they have taken the train from hazlet and got in no problem..........

Congrats. I work here too. Telling NYers everything is ok while Rome burned around the lights on broadway is f*cking clueless. His first responsibilty is the safety of NYers, not tourists from Jersey. The fact that you can't see how completely out of touch and incredibly stupid that is is scary.

[Sundog]

How is that clueless....he told people to go shopping and see a show on brodway....what does that have to do with the 5 boroughs?

Oh really? I thought people COME IN to the city to enjoy Broadway. Just not from the other 4 boroughs where the other 7 million people live? You are a mountain of fail.

[donsutherland1]

i guess bloomy was not watching the 18z gfs run on friday

In the locality in which I live, the call went out mid-day Christmas Day for all public works employees who have any role in snow removal to report to work the following morning, whether or not they were on vacation. By mid-Sunday morning, the roads were pre-treated. Residents were also advised to stay off the roads via text message/website alert. They were not encouraged to go shopping. Keeping people off the roads was a priority that superseded the opportunity for the normally higher retail sales that take place at this time of year.

Most of the roads had been plowed and were largely clear of snow by Monday evening. The major roads had been cleared by morning.

In NYC, a snow emergency should have been declared and enforced effective Sunday morning. Moreover, residents should have been advised stay off the roads, stay home, avoid all non-essential travel, etc., not openly encouraged to attend Broadway performances, etc. While the clean-up would almost certainly have been somewhat slower than in recent storms on account of the wind and drifting, the snow emergency and early enforcement would have cleared major arteries of vehicles that impeded snow removal operations. The advice for residents to stay home/avoid all non-essential travel would have reduced at least some of the traffic that got stuck in the snow. There's no way around it, the challenges associated with the blizzard were compounded by bad decision making that was likely rooted in complacency. That City Hall came up with repeatedly revised rationales for the slow clean-up, after initially having denied any serious problems, indicated a lack of preparedness and, worse, a lack of understanding of the magnitude of the problems at hand.

[BxEngine]

so lets get on tv and scream armegedon and people are dying...that would really help the situation.....again he said go to time square...not a side street is astoria

You didn't see the press conference clearly. Like I said...clueless. People in the other 4 boroughs are screwed...but hey if you can make your way into Manhattan....its all good!

Its not just about that one line you keep repeating.

[Allsnow]

Congrats. I work here too. Telling NYers everything is ok while Rome burned around the lights on broadway is f*cking clueless. His first responsibilty is the safety of NYers, not tourists from Jersey. The fact that you can't see how completely out of touch and incredibly stupid that is is scary.

The fact that you cant see why he would say somthing like that is not understanding the whole situation........if it was right or wrong...i can see why he said it.....perhaps there is more to ur anger with him then just this.....with cut backs and public safety taken a hit....which i could understand

[CAT5ANDREW]

Tom,Back in the 2006-07 winter when we had the 3 inches of sleet on valentines day and the water equiv was something like a foot of snow,the plow wakes buried cars and the mound froze solid,yet the next morning the Parking violations bureau gave out tickets to those who couldnt move their cars.Bloomberg at the time had this quote."Its only a couple of inches of snow.The real reason people dont want to move their cars is because they dont want to wake up and do it"Last FEB 25th he refused to close schools until the last minute because in his words "a little bit of snow should not intefere with a childs education"NYC got 20 inches.One of the higher ups in the DOSNY said that the reduced number of sanation workers would NOT be able to handle a big snowstorm and sure enopugh here it is.The force is down several thousand from previous years.Mayor Bloomberg does NOT know how to talk to the average person.We had a Mayor named Ed Koch who GOT IT.He understood what to say and what not to say.THe snow DID fall to fast for the plows and many plows got stuck.Noboby is blaming the drivers,hell they are heros as far as I am concerned.16 hour shifts nonstop,having to sleep in their depot.ANYBODY who plows snow gets a thumbs up from me.BUT the Mayor of NYC is a big eekhole who is as arogant as they come.

[NorthShoreWx]

No matter what you have to plow with it not going to get down a city street with 6 foot drifts.........you said they should have plowed through the storm when that was next to impossible with the condition no matter if u where in edison or nyc.....i said 25-30 for the 96 storm...not this storm...that you and algreek proclaim to have gotten. The big thing in the city is tourisim...not all of its revenue is in flushing ny. Not just ny people go to broadway...welcome to 2011 fred flinstone

What i also think made this storm bad on the city was the fact all this snow came in less then a 24hr period.....2006 took a while for it to stick in the city and the febuary storms of last year had breaks and warm surface temps........you said the models where changing at 18z....that being said nyc still got the forcast of ots friday night....i guess bloomy was not watching the 18z gfs run on friday

2006 was also low density fluff. This stuff was a lot tougher to move. Drifted snow gets quite dense and I believe the H2O content was much higher than the goose down that fell in 2006. More snow fell this time than in 2006, even if it wasn't measeured as deep.

That being said, a combination of the holiday and [despite hints that it could be much more] less than enthusastic predictions of anything more than minor accumulations until practically the last minute made for less preparation than there would normally be for a lesser storm. Where were the endless (and boring) TV news stories of loading salt at city depots and all that? Its because they weren't really expecting it and this was no run of the mill big dump when it hit. Probably city sanitation and their planners were lulled into the same sense of apathy.

[BxEngine]

The fact that you cant see why he would say somthing like that is not understanding the whole situation........if it was right or wrong...i can see why he said it.....perhaps there is more to ur anger with him then just this.....with cut backs and public safety taken a hit....which i could understand

There ya go....now you're getting it...its NOT just about that line.

Btw...what public safety cutbacks? He's been trying for years....hasn't accomplished it yet. Nice strawman though.

[CAT5ANDREW]

This is as bad as the blizzard of 1983 when cars were stuck in the Lincoln tunnel all night and the Major Highways all had stuck and abandoned cars,but even then,things got back to normal more quickly then it is now.

[Allsnow]

Tom,Back in the 2006-07 winter when we had the 3 inches of sleet on valentines day and the water equiv was something like a foot of snow,the plow wakes buried cars and the mound froze solid,yet the next morning the Parking violations bureau gave out tickets to those who couldnt move their cars.Bloomberg at the time had this quote."Its only a couple of inches of snow.The real reason people dont want to move their cars is because they dont want to wake up and do it"Last FEB 25th he refused to close schools until the last minute because in his words "a little bit of snow should not intefere with a childs education"NYC got 20 inches.One of the higher ups in the DOSNY said that the reduced number of sanation workers would NOT be able to handle a big snowstorm and sure enopugh here it is.The force is down several thousand from previous years.Mayor Bloomberg does NOT know how to talk to the average person.We had a Mayor named Ed Koch who GOT IT.He understood what to say and what not to say.THe snow DID fall to fast for the plows and many plows got stuck.Noboby is blaming the drivers,hell they are heros as far as I am concerned.16 hour shifts nonstop,having to sleep in their depot.ANYBODY who plows snow gets a thumbs up from me.BUT the Mayor of NYC is a big eekhole who is as arogant as they come.

Thanks andrew...i just dont liek the fact people complaining that they should have plowed with the storm and etc...that was next to impossible.....in no way am i going to agree with that you tube video as that was just plain dumb........but obviously there has been a long line of instance with bloomburg........all i stated was the fact that i can see why he would tell people to come into the city.. if it was right or wrong.....and Don i agree that the city was very unprepared.....i just think a few posters dont understand that a garbage truck with a plow on it is not going to do a city street with 4 feet of snow....and that had alot to do with the slow response time to side streets...which goes back to ur poit of being unprepared

[CAT5ANDREW]

I work for the MTA.The morons sent trains out in conditions that they knew were going to get the trains stuck DESPITE Train Operators urging them to cancel the trips.,which they did.Thankfully nobody died or was seriously injured.

[Allsnow]

2006 was also low density fluff. This stuff was a lot tougher to move. Drifted snow gets quite dense and I believe the H2O content was much higher than the goose down that fell in 2006. More snow fell this time than in 2006, even if it wasn't measeured as deep.

That being said, a combination of the holiday and [despite hints that it could be much more] less than enthusastic predictions of anything more than minor accumulations until practically the last minute made for less preparation than there would normally be for a lesser storm. Where were the endless (and boring) TV news stories of loading salt at city depots and all that? Its because they weren't really expecting it and this was no run of the mill big dump when it hit. Probably city sanitation and their planners were lulled into the same sense of apathy.

Thanks...i think ur post sums up the situation great

[BxEngine]

Thanks andrew...i just dont liek the fact people complaining that they should have plowed with the storm and etc...that was next to impossible.....in no way am i going to agree with that you tube video as that was just plain dumb........but obviously there has been a long line of instance with bloomburg........all i stated was the fact that i can see why he would tell people to come into the city.. if it was right or wrong.....and Don i agree that the city was very unprepared.....i just think a few posters dont understand that a garbage truck with a plow on it is not going to do a city street with 4 feet of snow....and that had alot to do with the slow response time to side streets...which goes back to ur poit of being unprepared

I didn't mention plowing at all. I merely commented on your defending of an out of touch mayor. There is no "whether he was right or wrong"...he was wrong..flat out. Watch the ENTIRE newsconference...then watch yesterdays. You'll see what we are getting at.

[Allsnow]

There ya go....now you're getting it...its NOT just about that line.

Btw...what public safety cutbacks? He's been trying for years....hasn't accomplished it yet. Nice strawman though.

going from 4 to 3 on a eng company......dont know where that is at yet though