Typhoon Tip

You know I’ve often wondered if that is possible… To get like a solid 12 to 18 inch type of upper moderate lower major snow storm with some wind and then as the storm is moving away, a Norlan trough coalesces in a lag convergence and dumps another 20 inches on top … out performing the cyclone

The angled trajectory is not the problem - the angle’s happening because of the problem. The models were trying to move the trough around an anticyclonic curvilinear field at continental scales and in doing so they were conserving too much of its potency. I mean that is the conventional physical understanding of these things – that tends to win at the unfortunate loss of what we want. But you know I’ve been talking about this model magnification stuff for a long time - seems Im the only one who hears my own voice ha ha. No but that was doing that, especially with that Canadian solution. And ironically the Canadian solution of 0Z makes more sense for the following morass coming in from the west which by the way ladies and gentlemen that is 13.14.15. It’s just not doing it along an idealized what anybody wants. Delayed being one of those aspects. But it’s really wrapping up across the continent on time it’s just gonna take a long time and smear its way east. So that part of it is definitely a change in the morphology. Do you know the biggest take away this whole era might just be that the models are still ginormously horrible during blocking periods

The disappearance of the 12 should be expected guys just sayn’

Looks like the GFS is trying to commit more to some sort of forcing toward either a quasi Miller b, or a warm advection arm low/warm frontal wave, as 13.14.15 is extending east … writings on the wall there. That’s likely a colder solution destiny N of PHL - how much so. Retrograde lower Maritime bomb plays a role.

Conventional wisdom is unfortunately not on Dec 12ths side tho. You have S/W translating along an anti cyclonic curved trajectory … I’m not sure the models aren’t ‘magnifying’ too hmm

I know … the interpretation of the GFS synoptic charts without even looking at the sounding is a slam dunk saturated layer/low growth look … again freezing drizzle/grits is an option. As is typically the case the 2-meter is steadily cooling as phase nears in time. It’s 536dm thickness with ENE sustained polar air collecting GOM steam No consideration. Just a low grade warfare between trolls vs futile efforts to explain heh. It’s all right though… It has an entertainment value to it lol

Guys you might get that anyway if/when that long cold llv jet slipping WSW sets up. Raw with gray grits or even some freezing drizzle from time to time Sat+ That kind of condition is quite likely with 1050mb park N of Maine. I’m actually expecting a bipolar mood swing violently the other direction by mere sight of flurries from OES them days. heh.

Not to yank anyone's chain but this 18z GFS was little interesting for meteorologist ( less so for enthusiasts with hand throwing downer neurosis lol...) But the mid/u/a/ counter part to the trough ejection for 13th's event is actually in fact being melded into the 17th as one contiguous series actually. It's a change in the temporal spacial aspects of the 10th -20th of the month... The way it more specifically manifests in the sfc synopsis, the 13th system no longer makes it N of the 50th parallel, before collapsing down across ~ ORD... The mid / upper air centers actually perform the same bizarre curved trajectory as they too settle back south and in fact, by the 16th...they eject a significant wind max 500 mb across the Del Marva, which ignites a new low on the boundary... This low moves N quickly and 'hooks' NW to VT, and flips the on going ana like rain sheild in NYS to snow as it pulls cold lurking near-by in Ontario - lurking there because the primary low and behavior never penetrated N of the border. That whole cinema is significantly different than previous solutions. But it is also more respective of ....any f'n NAO at all for f sake. haha. I mean, have you ever seen guidance more neurotic than the GFS, with first creating the thing and than having such utter fear of intimacy with it... Anyway, I just wanna also say that we've seen Minnesota mid ranger cyclones end up steadily corrected E ...and given that the 13th - 17th is still over a week away, it's not impossible. I mean, as much as it entertains you to troll there is an other side to this that's equally available whether you believe it or not.

Seems as though we’ve been yo-yo ed around. We’re being bamboozled probably by a combination of what we want to see but this antic in the guidance of getting close if not outright offering the dream look …only to pull back and enter back into this weirdly tandem warm/cool pattern as the whole scale finish … i’m done trying to filter this through optimism. Meanwhile the NAO it’s just strange looking even in the EPS. I’m sorry it is. Particularly in the GFS though with such a mass to the point where it doesn’t even look so much like an NAO anymore as much as it does a hemispheric problem with high heights to put it bluntly. i’ve been playing around with this thought all day that it’s an NAO mangled by the climate change footprint. I’m sure that’ll poke some hornets nests… roll lies or get people angry whatever I don’t give a shit it is what it is. And of course that may not be the case but it just looks strange and lacking any kind of explanation.

Eigh… not sure after the last 2.5 weeks of model peregrinations from the GEFs how anybody could possibly use turns of phrases like improved or impressed in deference to the Pacific – it’s right there …that is the point of origin of the emotional investment. Stop it!

Impressive surface pressure anomaly there over Northeast Quebec between the hours is 60 and roughly 130… Maxing out at 1052 or 1054 mbar that’s actually been an intensifying synoptic feature.

I thought it was the other way around. - it’s hard to keep track with the Pacific inconsistencies. But NAO handling’s been shaky th e last day and half and the guidance is trying to speed accordingly.

Not to be a nudge but that retrograde doesn’t bring in a wall of snow I hope people aren’t thinking that… That storm is maxed out and future at that point it’s probably just bringing in wind with light snow maybe a burst here and there but dim sun none of which is really accumulating

Placeholder kinematics?

Under present circumstances? It certainly is hard to describe the sweetness of that eye candy as an alternative to wet stench we’ve been forced to eat of the other guidance types. it may be of limited solace that this particular model run is really only day 5 to 7 with this (so it’s really on the front side of the 13.14.15 but it is still actually the same disturbance) and the reason why it’s limited solace is because this model has basically very limited predictive skill beyond D4s from what I’ve seen in the past. I don’t know if that’s changed in recent years? I know it’s gone thru some upgrades recently. I apologize if that’s case and it’s improved. I seldom use thus tool at time frames greater than day 4 as trust hasn’t been tested. Lol there’s too many forecast methods available as it is…. Your sentiment about watching for the Euro is a good, particularly because it was midway between this and the GFS ND/SD abomination - as of last night - tho trended the wrong way. That said… The threads purpose was still just for a risk assessment… The risk however still there

Unfortunately those as much as we laugh and lord of the flies this particular model it is unfortunately for the pessimists within the realm of plausibility‘s.

Not entirely certain what the pages contain since yesterday but in deference to the patterning evolution over the last 24 hours, in the runs, I cannot in objective fairness disagree with that sentiment as of this morning’s coffee. Little furthering on that … the Pacific relay over western N/A has been vacillating - we’ve been ruminating the issues with that ad nauseam But it is unfortunately still the biggest hurdle. A lot has been said over the last three weeks by a lot of different people - myself included. I have voiced sentiments on either side of pessimism versus optimism. I ultimately sided with optimism (in the context of what optimism means for this particular social media depot ) because there is a historical precedents for seasonal lapsing over the last decade. Blocking during transition seasons, Regardless of leading indicators…, loading cold transports etc. etc. Additionally, La Nina’s have a historical suggestion for early performance – helped along by the fact that we’ve had a very well coupled Nina basal state Pacific this autumn …might lend support for that as well The combination of those two factors made the negative EPO that was modeled two weeks ago (which by the way ended up arriving in passing more modest), as well as the impending negative NAO, a reasonable fits. The fact of the matter is… that’s all still the case and they still are. That all said I agree with Brian wholeheartedly that the NAO has a long history of breaking hearts when relying on long range excitement. I can dig back and find the post where I spoke about this with in no uncertain terms and in vivid detail why and how the NAO did not mean XYZ necessarily. I spoke at length about both the fail/red herring NAO handling m, and also tried to explain why the D(NAO) is more important than the NAO scaler mode. Old lessons were false in the 1990s and they’re still not dying, perhaps. Be that as it may we did except that notion by suggesting that the NAO would relax after the initial onset and there’s discussion in that area… All of which seems perhaps moot at this point if the models fail this vastly with structural handling in the first place. Yesterday and still today the GEFs -based PNA numerical values were/are rising some 2 standard deviations in the 7-10 day delta. I don’t believe the Pacific is being handled with very much better vision when the oper version cannot seem to ever reflect its own modes.

Saying since the upgrade implies the upgrade did something. Maybe … maybe not. Fwiw I am more more inclined to suspect the pattern is just troublesome in general to its particular ‘machinery’.

Quick statement wrt to the model contention (EPS vs the GEFs...). The GFS lineage does not lend to its being a better performing tool during retrograde/slowing patterns. Even in recent years... have personally noted that it still routinely is sped up over all other guidance by mid range, and what starts out as a small deviation from consensus, and almost unseen ... aggregates out in time. I've also noted that it's integrated colder heights are also deeper by small margins that grow in time ... By D10, it is almost always colder on the polar side of the ambient jet - for better or worse - comparing to its competing guidance sources. I realize the Euro has come under question, but ..the proof is in the here and now. One model has been more stable than the other, and the other's instability fits the above problems that I strongly argue it still has - however subtle those may be in a point to point analysis. Integration of tiny errors over 300 hours, matters... It's bias is (likely...) at odds with the nature of the hemisphere during this next two weeks, and these wild very large scale mass field continuity performance issues that are empirically observable in the GFS/GEFs is exposing what I personally have always known. The GFS does better and is competitive if not better than the other guidance now, in open wave velocity soaked pattern types. Take this information for what one will... I am not deviating from this thread's purpose just yet.

Well in any event… It’s too far out in time to make this kind of detailed comparison really. It’s basically just what I said earlier in the day. 13.14.15 the biggest sensitivity in all this is the handling off the Pacific; it’s just not in the Gfs‘s purview to actually do that… Apparently

Mm hm. Which may be a step towards Euro ? Possible

…it’s completely different across all the western US with the scale degree ridging … the timing of short waves coming out the Pacific even the details of the flow they’re all different this model has very very poor continuity …actually has zero continuity - it’s pretty much impossible to make out or identify the same features as the previous run relative to the time interval that’s the best way to describe this it just cannot see what’s going on coming off the Pacific Ocean after D6+ with much clarity. I would say that it’s worse than relative to even model error climate

One thing it’s gonna be less aggressive in winding up the low and taking it west of Chicago on this run I mean I may have a low out there but the morphology aloft and support for deep low transit west of the Great Lakes is definitely reduced on this 18 Z

GFS is arriving less progressive in the late mid and early extended range across the conus with all major features… proximately 500 nautical miles maybe or a little more. Defined difference also is the trough at 168 hours going through the south west is obscenely powerful. Sure how this will affect the evolution when all this gets east but it is what it is as it’s rolling out

For the record… I don’t mean to actually give the GFS shit ha ha. Just sayn. not speaking for everybody else Like I said it gave me pause because so much of the forecast system is doing what it’s doing. You know re the NAO …it’s almost like if you took an NAO appliqué to 30 more years of climate change you might get one that looks that way. It keeps occurring to me to be honest in kind a coveted little muse. I just read WPC is extended forecast discussion and they’re talking about the poor continuity and the bad predictability everywhere so seeing this massive continuity swinging around like this I really don’t take any of these runs very seriously including the entire ensemble system of the GFS or the EPS for that matter. I’m just trying to rely upon the numerical Teleconnectors and they still flag the 13 14 15 8–10 days might also be a clue too. Lol