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Everything is out of whack with the indices such as the QBO for example and I am simply mentioning something I read from Tip over in the NE winter forum. I thought what he mentioned supported some of the forecasts last winter regarding the solar min and a winter - AO . Later I read that there is a delayed factor, and actually the effect of a solar min may have more to do with its impact on the North Atlantic currents, ( and the - NAO ) . The ocean outcome on the NAO domain may take some time. HM mentioned the Greenland summer ice melts since 2013, and how this is messing up what you might expect. Or, as HM stated, it throws a monkey wrench into the possible correlation of the spring SST tripole and the ensuing winter's NAO phase. As for TIP he stated this in regards to the -AO and solar minimums : (please note - this is only a portion of his post - see the bolded part ) < I personally believe the recent observations wrt to the HC also play a role in enhancing the +AO, because: .. intuitively, the 2-6 phases of the MJO are probably getting a large/super synoptic scale constructive interference pattern by the current +HC ... which offers an early clue as to +AO winter ... experimental. Which is interesting, because the solar minimum going back hundreds of years of reanalysis ..certainly correlates reasonably well if not fantastically so, with the -AO ...again...we're stuck with diametric signals here. >

Last couple years we had good gains and I believe record North America snow cover in early December . Then, after December 20th it starts to shrink due to Pac air and a warmer NA pattern. Last year, and the year before were very abrupt turn around. However, my speculation is that we at least may get an impact from this moving into mid to later November, in terms of colder air . The SAI and extent regarding a connection to the winters dominant ensuing AO phase has basically be proven false. However, we do need a healthy cryosphere to support significant cold in our region. We may get some a few -EPO intervals this winter.

For those who follow the PDO , this is an eye opener. As bluewave noted, you do not typically see this in a Nina. Oh, and as you can see from the image below unless you are talking real time cause and effect, don't get excited just yet. Just look at last December 1 st and then the following Jan 15 th time period. We went from + PDO to negative PDO in a matter of weeks, with a two point deviation decline. < The PDO isn’t following the La Niña playbook this fall. This was one of the biggest PDO increases during a La Niña in October. But as we have seen since the record North Pacific warming in 2013, these monthly values can really jump around a lot. Last winter we went from positive in December to negative during January and February. It all comes down to how the North Pacific ridge behaves. >

Beach chase coming up !

Interesting https://www.osti.gov/biblio/1613223 Ural Blocking as a Driver of Early-Winter Stratospheric Warmings Abstract This study explores the early-winter atmospheric response to Ural blocking anomalies in November, using a nudging technique to constrain the temperature and dynamics in a high-top atmospheric model. Persistent Ural blocking anomalies in November are associated with a warm Arctic/cold Siberia pattern and increased upward planetary waves entering the stratosphere, leading to a warming of the polar vortex. This stratospheric response then propagates in the troposphere, leading to increased occurrence of the negative North Atlantic Oscillation in December and January. In contrast, simulations with perturbed Barents-Kara sea ice and Siberian snow in November do not reproduce a significant atmospheric response. In simulations including a slab ocean, the Ural blocking induces Barents-Kara sea ice and Siberia snow anomalies that resemble composite analyses from observations. These results highlight Ural blocking variability in November as a robust driver of early-winter stratospheric warming while questioning causality between sea ice/snow and Ural blocking anomalies.

A look at the latest CFSv2 and the GEFS 35 day forecasts we see overall the early season vortex still close to the seasonal ERA5 mean. The CFSv2 actually a little below the mean, with the GEFS slightly above the ERA5 mean. While the 35 day GEFS tracks the PV slightly above the seasonal ERA5 mean.

Speaking of the Ural High and the Scandi - Greenland pattern, maybe showing up in a more significant fashion for the month of November. Worth following, as the implications are significant, both short-term and long-term.

Many of those factors we have heard already, especially the possibility regarding the poleward Aleutian ridge. Wondering the effect of less sea ice, however, my thoughts focus on rapid snow cover up North along with a November enhanced - EPO / +PNA later November. Snow is indeed expanding now in week 42 up North. How long the SST configuration lasts off the West Coast / North Pac is up to debate. I am not so sure about a + NAO though, feel there may be a couple - episodes. Speculation on the Ural High connection. Keep an eye too on the Scandinavia–Greenland pattern . Although hard to predict beyond week 2. More about that on the link below. https://rmets.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/qj.3892

So true. Only with climate adjustments and weighting can you even begin to consider older analogs .

Speaking of analogs, take from this what you want. Both threads below have very interesting takes on climatology, analogs and SSTs . 1942 did happen during WWII.

As Anthony mentions, the weekly value does not define the strength of the Nina. However, it has joined a few others in the strong group, in week 42.

Interesting update. Do you feel those analogs you mention are still useful in our present climate regime? You must feel they have have some merit of course, as you stated they are the " best ENSO match by a combo of structure and intensity," but wondering whether you could comment further.

Pondering the Nina correlation to the ensuing winter's NAO and IOD, well.................

Seems that Greenland ice melt effects ( has altered ) the Greenland ocean circulation/tripole that is used to forecast the winter's ensuing dominate NAO phase. Just started to research this and also read a few intriguing posts by HM. Some state the summer ice melt was not as bad in Greenland, but according to HM is still was not great when you target on his on his focus which is repairing the Greenland ocean circulation/tripole. As HM states, the ice melts throws a monkey wrench in the NAO forecasts of the upcoming winter. HM states it is better to look at the Spring's tripole for an indication of the ensuing winter's NAO versus the tropical season. Caveats apply though, in regards to Greenland ice melt and AGW. Some interesting things to consider here.

Nina results vary, but cool to see the various temp profiles going back to 1925.

Must be big axx squirrels !

Nina update

I imagine this might be useful in winter, or anytime. Great resource material from Simon. Check it out.

A good read - posted by bluewave yesterday from a recent study on the winter + NAO and the near record + IOD last November. < A recent study linked the very strong +NAO last winter to near record +IOD in November. The +IOD was associated with the standing wave in the MJO 1-2 which was observed as early as last October and November. Those October MJO phases were similar to the other La Niña and Niña-like below normal snowfall seasons in 19-20, 18-19, 11-12, and 07-08. They mention a stratospheric pathway linking the flat ridge north of Hawaii and the more +NAO in the Atlantic. The normal to above normal La Niña snowfall seasons since 2000 had stronger MJO 5 forcing in October. Those seasons were followed by intervals of -EPO and -NAO blocking. So this may potentially be how we saw the October to winter MJO relationship since 2000. But as always, there are no guarantees this relationship will work every season. https://rmets.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/asl.1005 Predictability of European winter 2019/20: Indian Ocean dipole impacts on the NAO 3.3 Stratospheric pathway As alluded to in the previous section, the stratospheric teleconnection pathway of the IOD to the Atlantic involves the Aleutian cyclone, and is similar to that already documented for ENSO (Manzini et al., 2006; Ineson and Scaife, 2009). Demonstrated best by the IOD experiment in the month of December, Figure 3cshows a Rossby wave train emerging from the Indian Ocean that leads to poleward flow in the North Pacific near the dateline, and equatorward flow to the east of this. These two responses combine to give anomalously positive MSLP just south of Alaska and the Aleutian Islands. Figure 4a shows that this MSLP anomaly in DJF is in a very similar location to that due to ENSO (shown also in fig. 1 of Ineson and Scaife, 2009). For the single case of winter 2019/20, this signal is evident in early winter, as discussed below, and again in the DJF mean (Figure 3b) due to a particularly strong signal in January and February. As described in Ineson and Scaife (2009), the positive MSLP anomaly (Figure 4a) acts to reduce the strength of the climatological Aleutian cyclone and, thereby, reduces the amplitude of planetary waves propagating upwards into the stratosphere. Figure 4b demonstrates this reduction in planetary wavenumber 1 amplitude (diagnosed using geopotential height at 100 hPa, area averaged 40–80°N, and then Fourier decomposed; Hardiman et al., 2008) in the IOD experiment, and is consistent with fig. 10b of Fletcher and Cassou (2015). Reduced planetary wave driving in the stratosphere leads to an anomalously strong stratospheric polar vortex (defined by U(60°N, 10 hPa) in Figure 4c, and see also fig. 10 of Fletcher and Cassou, 2015). Anomalously strong vortex signals propagate downwards into the troposphere, resulting in a positive NAO at the surface approximately 1 month later (Baldwin and Dunkerton, 1999; Kidston et al., 2015). In fact, this positive MSLP anomaly in the Aleutian region occurs also in November, so reduced wave driving (Figure 4b) and an anomalously strong stratospheric polar vortex (Figure 4c) are already apparent in November. Indeed, the November polar vortex strength is anomalously positive in IOD composites, the IOD experiment, ERA‐5, and all forecast systems (not shown). Fig. 4 of Nie et al. (2019) demonstrated that an early winter preconditioning of the stratospheric polar vortex in November descends through the stratosphere and troposphere in the following winter months, projecting onto an anomalously positive NAO in DJF. The winter of 2019/20 was anomalously warm and wet across the UK and Northern Europe, due to a strongly positive NAO. The winter was well forecast by the C3S and the Met Office DP3 seasonal forecast systems. Even the details of individual months, such as the transition from the negative pressure anomaly west of the UK in December to a positive NAO in January/February, were well forecast by all seasonal systems. Such remarkable agreement amongst systems is suggestive of the positive NAO being strongly driven by global influences, and predictable in this case. In this paper, composite analysis and numerical experiments are used to identify the very strong positive IOD event at the start of the winter as the key driver. Two teleconnection pathways are identified using an experiment in which two ensemble forecasts, one with the observed November 2019 Indian Ocean SST anomalies, and one with the negative of these anomalies, are produced using DP3. The difference in the ensemble mean response, shows a Rossby wave train originating in the Indian Ocean and propagating across the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans. In the Atlantic, this wave train projects directly onto the observed Atlantic MSLP anomalies. In the Pacific, the wave train acts to reduce the amplitude of the Aleutian cyclone and therefore the amplitude of planetary waves propagating into the stratosphere. This results in an anomalously strong stratospheric polar vortex, projecting onto an anomalously positive NAO. This numerical experiment shows good agreement with both the ERA‐5 reanalysis data and the C3S multi‐model seasonal forecasts in terms of the details of both teleconnection pathways. Furthermore, both pathways are very similar to the well documented tropospheric and stratospheric teleconnection pathways whereby ENSO impacts the north Atlantic MSLP (Hardiman et al., 2019). The impact of the IOD on the Atlantic jet stream and associated precipitation anomalies is a northward shift in the jet latitude, a slight increase in the jet strength, and anomalously high precipitation over the UK and northern Europe, as shown in Figure 5. This is consistent with an anomalously positive NAO and agrees well with the features observed in winter 2019/20. There is a remarkable agreement between the IOD experiment and the C3S multi‐model mean forecast. The signal in the December observations is noisier (Figures 3a and 5a), but this is expected, being only a single realisation of a single month. A knowledge of the teleconnection pathways between the IOD and the North Atlantic gives greater confidence in the seasonal forecast skill they offer. The frequency of positive IOD events has doubled in the 20th century, and their intensity has also increased, with this trend projected to continue (Abram et al., 2020). It is likely, therefore, that such connections will become increasingly important for seasonal forecasting of European winters during the rest of the 21st century. >

Simon made this cool presentation. Also, looking from his site, there are some minor changes with regard to to the development of the early season PV. CFSv2 GEFS

Do you know if this tendency in a Nina carries to lower latitudes as well, such as the Northern Mid Atlantic ? I have always felt, and observed, during the past 40 years a snowy December exceeding 6 inches of snowfall in my area goes on to produce above normal snowfall in the ensuing winter ( in a Nino year ) . So far that indicator has done very well.

Weaker vortex early on might would support this outcome.

For those interested in the prediction value of the GloSea5 model and the seasonal winter NAO phase, great post here by Grit. < The Met Office prides itself on its predictions of the NAO with its seasonal model. I looked at the NAO prediction from prior October seasonal model output back to Oct 2009 (this is the oldest date in the archive on the seasonal model site - https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/climate/seasonal-to-decadal/gpc-outlooks/ens-mean). In looking at the charts, I would say that in 9 of the 11 years, the October prediction of the NAO on the model was a good one. The 2 misses were in Oct 2013 and 2015. Here was the Oct seasonal output from 2010 and 2011 - both quite good with the NAO prediction (-NAO in 2010-2011 / +NAO in 2011-2012), with both of those being La Nina winters. Finally, here is a chart from the Met Office showing hindcasts for their prediction of the NAO with the GloSea5 seasonal model for the winters of 1993 to 2012. The results are pretty good. Note: this is the NAO prediction from the Nov1 release each year - https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2014GL059637 >

interesting zonal wind forecast https://mobile.twitter.com/MattHugo81/status/1314440730534989824

I am starting to like the idea of a mini front loaded winter , however, in our case/area that may simply mean normal temps with a minor event. Meanwhile trends with the PV at this time maintain a normal seasonal progression, along the line of the ERA5 mean. Along with a supported - AO. Even though recent Octobers have exhibited a - AO more so than in the heart of winter. Already spoken here is the possibility of a more so - NAO early in season . Although maybe more East based. And very interesting is this post, and the possible variations of the Nina and the effect on the NH