michsnowfreak

I will say it again. The same snow measurement guidelines for first-order stations have been in place since 1950. Any station is going to have had multiple observers and likely site changes since then, but the guidelines are the same. To pick out one here and there is irrelevant. I can find tons of spotter/coop data that clearly undermeasures snow by an insane amount, whether you are talking in 2025 or 1905. Dubois, PA is obviously not a first order station, they have a limited data set from the mid-1960s to mid-1990s. Even pre-1950, I have looked at plenty of station data at first-order stations and the snow depth is not just the snowfall added to the previous snow depth. Ive analyzed snowfall in great detail - more than any other aspect of weather (and ive analyzed them all), and i find it appears quite accurate since 1900 or so.

I too agree, and never has hourly clearing been standard, so if that was being done, again, that is fault of the individual observer.

This is just another example of how all observers are different and you cant make blanket assumptions about past or present.

Wow thats definitely weird. I think just like in any other field, all NWS mets/employees are different and maybe the one you had had a soapbox or something. I assumed when you said they tossed it you just meant they didnt use it, but to actually note that "old school" thing is wild. But inconsistency is the key word here. Regardless of what they do with coop/spotter reports, the official sites all clear every 6 hours. The OPL at DTX is awesome and friendly, Im going to ask her some time about the spotter stuff and see what her take or understanding on it is.

Im not sure but probably has to have some sort of lake influence, because again, it has to do with just getting that sifting arctic powder falling in below zero air, which isnt really a synoptic feature, and the sky is otherwise mostly or partly clear. Picture when a powder snow is sitting on tree branches and the wind blows it off and it comes off in fine mists of powder/flakes. Its like that. Thats sort of what im trying to describe, and the sun hits it and makes a "snowbow" of colors. Ive seen it a few times but it isnt common.

I always thought when they said "on the level" it was implying that was the measurement, then they would notate the higher drifts. I definitely doubt some of the totals back then, but I always look at it as having some information is better than others. I use 1900 as about the baseline for when I can really trust observations. The 1870s-1890s data is imo not perfect BUT is a great tool for us to piece together what each individual winter was like. Looking at the data here in Detroit for 1880-81 and 1881-82 is almost unbelievable in that 1880-81 was the most severe winter on record (until 2013-14 came along :)) and 1881-82 the warmest (still to this day). But the Laura Ingalls Wilder books (granted, this was in Dakota Territory I believe) detail this, one book being called "The Long Winter" which discusses the blizzard parade from Oct to Apr 1880-81, and the next book, while not concentrating on the weather as much references how warm and without snow 1881-82 was.

Thats another thing (bolded). The old days of weather observing showed extremely meticulous observations. Again, I have seen some of the old weather log books myself and they are incredible. Many days have a narrative that you will never see when just looking at the raw data (A narrative on Dec 25, 1901: Night of the 24 - 25 cloudy; moist snow continued, heaviest between hours of 1:30 and 4:30 am, ended at 6 am. amount of precipitation .62 inches. The street cars ran all night to keep the tracks open. The snow adhered to trees etc, and made a very beautiful scene. Depth of snow on ground at 8 am, 5.5 inches). Fast forward to today, and you are talking everything is automated with exception of snow, and while most NWS offices work diligently to ensure they have good/well trained snow observers, they are subject to error like anyone else, and often are not actual NWS mets. So this acting like we have perfect measurements today and discounting old stuff is not silly. And once again, Im not sure where this 1950-1980 stuff is coming from. Nearly ALL first order sites have followed the 6-hour rule since 1950 (spotters are another story).

How does everyone know they didnt just measure snow and apply a 10-1 ratio, rather than the other way around? Ive seen old weather logs and they are incredibly detailed, but there is no reference to how or if they melted the snow. You are assuming that they melted it and applied a 10-1 ratio, yet they frequently would say there was "21" on the level with higher drifts" or something like that. Though its been long since discounted, the original "rule of thumb" was 10" of snow holds 1" of water, so in the 1800s, it would be a hell of a lot easier to measure the snow with a ruler/yardstick and assume the 10-1 ratio, rather than not do the simple task of measuring it with a ruler but waiting around for hours if not a day for the snow to melt in a can indoors.

Sounds beautiful! I dont recall seeing that, though I have seen a snowbow and as said above, those brutal cold mornings it can be sifting glitter from a mostly blue sky, that is a sight to see and it glitters unlike any camera can capture, tho ive tried.

I always wish i lived in a good radiational cooling area. I live blocks away from the Detroit River so the water kind of buffers my lows and makes them similar to DTW. But some of the radiational cooling spots in SE MI can really tank. The DTX NWS is a great example of this. It is a radiational cooling magnet in a rural area of Detroits far NW suburbs. They have data since 2000, so looking at the past 25 years of data, the average between there and DTW (Detroit Metro Apt) officially is very different. Annual days at or below 0F: DTW- 3, DTX- 10 Annual days at or below 32F: DTW- 117, DTX- 150 First freeze avg: DTW- Oct 27th, DTX- Oct 8th Last freeze avg: DTW- Apr 24th, DTX- May 12th Radiational cooling is apparent all year long too. Even in the heat of summer, DTX NWS will fall into the 40s several times in July & August, whereas DTW typically does not see 40s in July or August.

Another cold morning. 25F at DTW, the frost this morning was very glittery. 5 of the first 9 days of April have had lows in the 20s at Detroit: 1st- 26 5th- 29 7th- 26 8th- 23 9th- 25 Last night some isolated but potent lake effect snow showers gave a coating to an inch around Port Huron.

Game time temp was 34F. But Skubal pitched a masterpiece and Tigers won 5-0!

Some of the intense arctic shots have been concentrating more in the Plains/Midwest than the east coast. These arctic blasts typically are much colder to our west. The Great Lakes buffer the cold a bit, so in some of the biggest arctic blast we will see a "modification" of the air that often entails brisk winds and lake clouds and flakes, sometimes you get this fine arctic powder than just comes down and coats everything in glitter, despite nothing on radar, with temps being anywhere from 0F to -10F or so, whereas areas west of the lakes will be crystal clear and like -20 to -25F or something. One thing that I notice is that the arctic airmasses are windier. I mean, you still get radiational cooling on clear, calm nights (esp with snowcover) but the temps dont tank as much in the metro area as they will in the rural areas. But these arctic blasts are almost always giving us below zero temps with gusty winds, creating brutal wind chills, and we usually get a quick one or two even in the milder winters. Since the much advertised "winter pattern shift" beginning in 2016, we have still seen -30F or colder wind chills in Jan 2019, Dec 2022, Jan 2024, & Jan 2025. The coldest Ive felt was on Jan 6, 2014. It was about -14F with wind chills near -50F, and I took my gloves off to take this sunset pic and in the seconds I had my hands exposed they burned when I went inside. Not in my wildest dreams did I imagine that winter was only just beginning.

Its a shame there isnt more consistence. I think the reason they probably dont have spotters do it is because most cant/wont. Some will, but others wont. Again, here in a climate of more frequent but less dramatic snowfalls, Ive learned by far that the bigger the snowstorm the bigger the settling. I check the daily areas coop reports so I already know locally who is good and who is not. You can literally tell who actually measures properly and who measures whats on the board at their obs time. I have seen snowfalls that melted the day before actually go in as a trace, and thats ridiculous. I know some of the DTX mets and Ive heard from others on this board who know some of their local NWS mets. Seems to me that the consensus is, the first order stations are called/call in for every obs (00z, 06z, 12z, 18z). Detroit and Flint have good observers, Saginaw is a bit more flighty. The NWS office is located in a very rural area far NW of Detroit. I wish they kept the NWS offices at the main first order site! If there is something fishy with a first order sites report, the met will usually question the observer (Ive heard this happens with CLE NWS for the Toledo observer). I think/assume the general consensus with NWS offices is make sure your first order/main climate sites are coming in with proper/realistic measurments and as for your coops/spotters, just continue to post the "how to measure snow" guidelines on social media and hope for the best

Agree. We have to separate the earth is warming from the winter cold availability. We go below zero and have had more impressive cold shots than we did locally in the 1930s-50s. Three different winters between 2014-19 saw temps get to -13F or colder at Detroit. That low (-13) was not attained once from 1935 til 1963.

I always use the 6 hour method. However, im curious....why would spotters be discouraged from doing this? I didnt think most of them did it anyway. The 6-hour method is standard at all first order climate sites, but as for spotters, I always looked at them as volunteer weather observers who are volunteering their hobbyist observations; I take most spotter reports with a grain of salt whether its from 1910, 1960, or 2025 lol. But again, this primarly affects the bigger storms.

Oh yes! Dry snow = bad for ASOS. Dry snow AND wind = nightmare for ASOS. Its less of an issue with a standard rain gauge but still not fool proof.

Its very frustrating for fans who had tickets tho. Its one of those things that will never make everyone happy. Its VERY tricky to schedule baseball based on a forecast tho. I have seen summer games where they delay the start due to a forecasted thunderstorm that never really hits the stadium area lol.

I use a standard NWS rain gauge. So I do it the "old-fashioned" and fool proof way. Melt each snowfall. By doing this you will find that all snowfalls are different, although your sliding scale is an excellent base. Many ASOS have problems with drier snow, so you will see some slightly underdone totals which just baffles me that we have to deal with this in 2025, but it is what it is.

Spring of 2020. Oh boy lol. A 1.3" snowfall on Apr 15th was followed by 3.4" on Apr 17th. Then an unprecedented 5 days in a row of snow in May (May 8-12) which peaked as a half inch of wet snow on the 10th (Mothers Day).

This "snow being undermeasured" in the old days is widely skeptical IMO. Its just another excuse for some to try and find an excuse for the weaker winters of the old days, and assume the snowier winters were even snowier. Whether its 1880 or 2025, snow is measured by a human and subject to human error. For starters, nearly all first order stations have used the same 6-hour snow measurement practices since 1950 or so, not 1980. As for pre-1950 data, a key I look for is precip total, snowfall, and snow depth. This is where you would notice any inflations or undermeasurments. One thing working in their favor in the pre-1950 years vs today is that the weather obs were highly cared for and someone was monitoring around the clock. With most first order sites now away from the actual NWS (weather bureau in the old days), you rely on the observers to be on top of things if anything like melting, mixing, etc occurred between the 6 hour intervals. In the old days they were on top of all that, documenting every detail (ie: snow began at 7:38pm, or snow ended at 3:42pm). If one truly measured only at the end of a storm or whatever, you would find that it is mostly the larger storms that are more inflated using 6 hours. The main data I question locally is the 1870s-1890s data. Far too often they always used the 10-1 ratio. If I had to guess, what I THINK they did was measure the snow depth "on the level" and apply a 10-1 ratio. Once we get to 1900 or so is when the data becomes more clear (ie, its not always 10-1 ratio, the snow depth is more in line with compacting/settling, etc). In my spare time Im working on piecing together weather data from the 1830s-1860s. I have several journals/books that detail it, so Im trying to piece together the good and not so good years. As I understand it, the 1860s were generally harsh winters, the 1850s a mixed bag, and the 1830s-1840s were quite mild and "open" winters with a few exceptions. So dont just assume any linear up or down at any level. Last but certainly not least, in terms of future snow...dont assume warmer means less snow for all. While it may be the case for NYC and south, for places farther north it could be a completely different story. Milder winters often lead to more dynamic/powerful snowstorms in further north climes.

This years Tigers home opener had a game time temp of 50F, which was the warmest home opener in 10 years. Games 2 and 3 were mid-40s then yesterdays game time temp was 38F. Todays will be in the 30s somewhere (it was 23F this morning!). Sitting in the cold during April games is quite uncomfortable, even for a winter lover. When the chill of Fall hits for Sept and especially Oct baseball, its a complete different story. There nothing like the crisp, chilly autumn air swirling around the smells of the ballpark during playoff baseball! Of course its not quite as cold as April, but the difference is the April cold comes after a long winter when youre body is used to cold, whereas Fall baseball comes after a hot summer. Yet it hits so differently.

DTW got down to 23F this morning with wind chills near 10F. A few more flurries overnight. Definitely feels like winter.

They changed due to cold, not snow. Lows tonight and tomorrow night in the low 20s with wind chills tonight in the teens. The decision to move up was because it's "warmer" in the day. Tomorrow should have sun but high only 37, maybe some lake snow showers. Wed will be warmer but rain and snow possible at night. Just sucks for whoever had tickets to night games.

Big cold front came thru. Its windy and the flakes are flying off and on. Wind chills in the teens later. They changed all 3 games to day games this series because of the cold.