40/70 Benchmark Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 The US was most successful when its policies did encourage a degree of collectivism...from the New Deal Years into the 1960s. Income taxes were much higher, there was much more regulation of the financial markets through the Glass-Steagel Act and FDIC...but the country prospered because these reforms weren't inimical to the creativity of the market, they were just a check on the law of the jungle getting out of hand. It was when we started to repeal limits on investment banking, bundling of loans, etc that we got into trouble....and when we started to cut taxes so much that the government's ability to enact social programs was reduced. Let's face it, most of these "handouts" you so fear have been going to the rich. The highest income tax bracket went from near 70% in WWII times to 35%, the government began tax loopholes like NAFTA that benefit corporations and wealthy consumers more than anyone else, and then we somehow decided to bail out Wall Street, the people who had always claimed the "free market" was best and then immediately went clamoring for public money when things were bad. Well, I'm going back centuries....in the grand scheme of things, capitalism was great.....however, I do agree that it's probably a little out of hand today. Like I said, it's not perfect and we probably do need a bit more regulation, than what we see today. I was talking on a larger scale, though. I think you would agree, though that society is better off today, than it would have been without capitalism....essentially all I meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan11 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 It's just human nature. There have to be some checks on human behavior or we run amuck and the "absolute power corrupts absolutely" axiom kicks in. Capitalism brilliantly harnesses that aspect of human nature, but completely unchecked it would implode. The reason Marx was wrong about his theory is because we did in fact temper pure capitalism. I say the same things about certain unions such as the public sector unions here in NY that will just keep pushing for more until they collapse the very government system that has enriched them. This is can apply to various areas of human behavior. The US was most successful when its policies did encourage a degree of collectivism...from the New Deal Years into the 1960s. Income taxes were much higher, there was much more regulation of the financial markets through the Glass-Steagel Act and FDIC...but the country prospered because these reforms weren't inimical to the creativity of the market, they were just a check on the law of the jungle getting out of hand. It was when we started to repeal limits on investment banking, bundling of loans, etc that we got into trouble....and when we started to cut taxes so much that the government's ability to enact social programs was reduced. Let's face it, most of these "handouts" you so fear have been going to the rich. The highest income tax bracket went from near 70% in WWII times to 35%, the government began tax loopholes like NAFTA that benefit corporations and wealthy consumers more than anyone else, and then we somehow decided to bail out Wall Street, the people who had always claimed the "free market" was best and then immediately went clamoring for public money when things were bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40/70 Benchmark Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 It's just human nature. There have to be some checks on human behavior or we run amuck and the "absolute power corrupts absolutely" axiom kicks in. Capitalism brilliantly harnesses that aspect of human nature, but completely unchecked it would implode. The reason Marx was wrong about his theory is because we did in fact temper pure capitalism. I say the same things about certain unions such as the public sector unions here in NY that will just keep pushing for more until they collapse the very government system that has enriched them. This is can apply to various areas of human behavior. Sure. It is the best system, but it's not perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoarfrostHubb Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 For the love of Ullr, can you folks go to PR Aieeee. I paid $10 to cross the Newport Bridge yesterday cuz I'm an idiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weathafella Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Sorry but we're there so I must comment. People in the right decry socialism while sucking Israel's you know what. Israel was founded on socialism and social programs are part of their success. Now disclaimer: I lean left but strongly support Israel ...and part of the reason is what I just said. The other part is because I am a Jew born a year after ww2. I grew up watching documentaries on the holocaust. All groups get picked on but it's harder when there aren't that many of you (maybe 15 million world wide). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoarfrostHubb Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Hello Prime Credit dis is Peggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan11 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 There's another sticking point with me ...obscene tolls. LOL I refuse to pay Bloomberg and Chris Christie's George Washington Bridge toll of $12 now to get into NYC! I add 30 mins to my trip and enter the city via free avenue bridges from the Bronx into upper Manhattan. With everything there is a breaking point. For the love of Ullr, can you folks go to PR Aieeee. I paid $10 to cross the Newport Bridge yesterday cuz I'm an idiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Torchey Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 It is 50F out at 9:30pm on Nov 27th. What else is there to talk about? 28 in GC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan11 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 55 filthy degrees here in GC "west" I trust Pete's snow is melted now. 28 in GC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40/70 Benchmark Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Nate, you also have to simply give credit to other nations within the global arena such as Japan....they made HUGE strides on us while we were busy deskilling our workforce in an effort to continue exploiting it. This is especially applicable with respect to the automotive industry....they simply became better and more efficient. 38.9\37 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoarfrostHubb Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 There's another sticking point with me ...obscene tolls. LOL I refuse to pay Bloomberg and Chris Christie's George Washington Bridge toll of $12 now to get into NYC! I add 30 mins to my trip and enter the city via free avenue bridges from the Bronx into upper Manhattan. With everything there is a breaking point. I had to pay it because I read a sign wrong The tolls $4 each way. I had no cash on me so I had to pay a $2 fee. This was on my mom's island Not anybodys fault but mine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski MRG Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Yes but the capitalism we have now breeds an extreme inequality resembling the Robber Baron 1880s and the Roaring Twenties, both of which led to large problems within the market and eventually structural reforms. Ever since the 1960s, income inequality has been rising in America, and we've seen one of the consequences of the extreme greed of Wall Street and the financial instability of the income gap in the crash of 2008, closely related to the mortgage crisis. There needs to be much more of a balance between encouraging market creativity/innovation and also ensuring the wealth gap doesn't get out of control, which leads to larger socioeconomic problems like the housing fallout, crime, etc. The US was most successful when its policies did encourage a degree of collectivism...from the New Deal Years into the 1960s. Income taxes were much higher, there was much more regulation of the financial markets through the Glass-Steagel Act and FDIC...but the country prospered because these reforms weren't inimical to the creativity of the market, they were just a check on the law of the jungle getting out of hand. It was when we started to repeal limits on investment banking, bundling of loans, etc that we got into trouble....and when we started to cut taxes so much that the government's ability to enact social programs was reduced. Let's face it, most of these "handouts" you so fear have been going to the rich. The highest income tax bracket went from near 70% in WWII times to 35%, the government began tax loopholes like NAFTA that benefit corporations and wealthy consumers more than anyone else, and then we somehow decided to bail out Wall Street, the people who had always claimed the "free market" was best and then immediately went clamoring for public money when things were bad. I knew it, you're one of those hippie types. For the love of Ullr, can you folks go to PR Aieeee. I paid $10 to cross the Newport Bridge yesterday cuz I'm an idiot I love how you get uncomfortable as soon as anything controversial comes up.lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weathafella Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Nate, you also have to simply give credit to other nations within the global arena such as Japan....they made HUGE strides on us while we were busy deskilling our workforce in an effort to continue exploiting it. This is especially applicable with respect to the automotive industry....they simply became better and more efficient. 38.9\37 But to be fair, that industry was able to capitalize in it's early days with tariffs that protected the local product. We've been much more free trade sometimes to the detriment of our workers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40/70 Benchmark Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 But to be fair, that industry was able to capitalize in it's early days with tariffs that protected the local product. We've been much more free trade sometimes to the detriment of our workers. Be that as it may, the main reason was that they were simply better. In Japan, each factory worker could do every other one's job....however in the US, there was a concerted effort to make sure that that was NOT the case......they didn't want risk having to pay them more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Organizing Low Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Hello Prime Credit dis is Peggy what in the sam he11 is going on in here??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40/70 Benchmark Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I knew it, you're one of those hippie types. I love how you get uncomfortable as soon as anything controversial comes up.lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoarfrostHubb Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Temps climbing up from 40F to 43F in the last few hours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoarfrostHubb Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I knew it, you're one of those hippie types. I love how you get uncomfortable as soon as anything controversial comes up.lol AmWx is my one soothing part of my life... I need a wall around me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weathafella Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Be that as it may, the main reason was that they were simply better. In Japan, each factory worker could do every other one's job....however in the US, there was a concerted effort to make sure that that was NOT the case......they didn't want risk having to pay them more. But that's the dark side. Workers often knew the deal but were powerless yet THEY paid the price will the execs often got a soft landing or a bailout. But the other side is paying assembly line workers obscene wages in some case. Union fat cats got rich too. Too many special interests to make it work well sometimes. Our culture needs to be more community oriented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan11 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Ehh ...some of it depends upon whether the toll is going for a worthy need.... In NYC it's going to the Port Authority/MTA where you have subway drivers and bus drivers that think the should make as much as teachers (or maybe more) who have masters degrees. And it's especially going to fund the Ground Zero project that has had a hundreds of cost overruns. All those billions they gave to NYC after 9/11 ....poof....vanished. I had to pay it because I read a sign wrong The tolls $4 each way. I had no cash on me so I had to pay a $2 fee. This was on my mom's island Not anybodys fault but mine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoarfrostHubb Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Ehh ...some of it depends upon whether the toll is going for a worthy need.... In NYC it's going to the Port Authority/MTA where you have subway drivers and bus drivers that think the should make as much as teachers (or maybe more) who have masters degrees. And it's especially going to fund the Ground Zero project that has had a hundreds of cost overruns. All those billions they gave to NYC after 9/11 ....poof....vanished. Well, my mom only pays $0.83 to cross it (less than when it opened in 1969 or so). They kept it at $2 until a few years ago. My mom usues an EZ pass and it is cheap. Again, I just misread a sign and went down a road I had been on 100s of times in the past. lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan11 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Hah ...American cars were so bad.... I remember our '69 Ford Ranchwagon ...utterly rusted out and wrecked after about 8 years. Back then if you got to 100k miles that was really something. But when it comes to like China ...we should have driven a harder bargain when we allowed them access to our whole markets. Now they own us so it's too late. I'm generally free trade, but with some fairness. Be that as it may, the main reason was that they were simply better. In Japan, each factory worker could do every other one's job....however in the US, there was a concerted effort to make sure that that was NOT the case......they didn't want risk having to pay them more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weathafella Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 NAM has an interesting temperature profile at 84 hours...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan11 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 You might not relate O.L. You live in a well run country. what in the sam he11 is going on in here??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40/70 Benchmark Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 But that's the dark side. Workers often knew the deal but were powerless yet THEY paid the price will the execs often got q. Soft landing or a bailout. But the other side is paying assembly line workers obscene wages in some case. Union fat cats got rich too. Too many special interests to make it work well sometimes. Our culture needs to be more community oriented. I'm gonna suggest a couple of readings for you that provide quite the dichotomy beween the Japanese style and American plants....Japan was TEAM oriented and had very stringent criteria by which they adhered to with regard to the employee selection process. The US. was chotic, disjointed and simply inferior......Japan was a well oiled and integrated machine. "On The Line ar Subaru-Isuzu".....by Laurie Graham "Rivethead"....by Ben Hamper. It was no accident that Japan surpassed us. You can borrow them from me if you will be @ the gtg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weathafella Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Well, my mom only pays $0.83 to cross it (less than when it opened in 1969 or so). They kept it at $2 until a few years ago. My mom usues an EZ pass and it is cheap. Again, I just misread a sign and went down a road I had been on 100s of times in the past. lol. Get A transponder. It will help when you come to the gtg when it's in Boston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoarfrostHubb Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Get A transponder. It will help when you come to the gtg when it's in Boston. lol. I would only use it once or twice per year. I can take Rte 2 into Boston/Cambridge. No problem. I go in pretty often that way I rarely go over the Pell (Newport) Bridge, and when I do I usually take my mom's car with the EZ pass transponder. A Boston gtg would be good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropopause_Fold Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Heavy heavy politics. Booooooo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40/70 Benchmark Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Hah ...American cars were so bad.... I remember our '69 Ford Ranchwagon ...utterly rusted out and wrecked after about 8 years. Back then if you got to 100k miles that was really something. But when it comes to like China ...we should have driven a harder bargain when we allowed them access to our whole markets. Now they own us so it's too late. I'm generally free trade, but with some fairness. You can only exploit other nations via outsourcing in favor of cheap labor for so long before it comes full circle and bites you in the azz. Before you know it, the domestic knowledge base is inferior and you have fallen on your own sword. India, China, Japan.....the list goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoarfrostHubb Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I'm gonna suggest a couple of readings for you that provide quite the dichotomy beween the Japanese style and American plants....Japan was TEAM oriented and had very stringent criteria by which they adhered to with regard to the employee selection process. The US. was chotic, disjointed and simply inferior......Japan was a well oiled and integrated machine. "On The Line ar Subaru-Isuzu".....by Laurie Graham "Rivethead"....by Ben Hamper. It was no accident that Japan surpassed us. You can borrow them from me if you will be @ the gtg... Isn't there a well read Toyota book, too? "The Toyota way" or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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