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Occasional Thoughts on Climate Change


donsutherland1
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15 hours ago, Typhoon Tip said:

It's all about momentum ... op ed as we will, opine and whine... but in the end, you have an industrialized world with 7+billion on board -

I made this metaphor several weeks ago in a diatribe - it's hard to turn a fully loaded sea-tanker around inside 1.5 mi, when we only have .75 miles before the edge of the world.  

That's basically it ... that symbolism means, there is too much ballast going in the direction of FF for energy.   This denial and those asshat "conditional sociopaths" all of it is just part of that momentum.  Oh, it'll abate eventually ... in lieu of the new world order. Whether that is by force or choice remains to be seen, but in either case, ...it'll take time.

Chimps are smarter than these people

https://www.nature.com/articles/21415

 

Abstract

As an increasing number of field studies of chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes) have achieved long-term status across Africa, differences in the behavioural repertoires described have become apparent that suggest there is significant cultural variation1,2,3,4,5,6,7. Here we present a systematic synthesis of this information from the seven most long-term studies, which together have accumulated 151 years of chimpanzee observation. This comprehensive analysis reveals patterns of variation that are far more extensive than have previously been documented for any animal species except humans8,9,10,11. We find that 39 different behaviour patterns, including tool usage, grooming and courtship behaviours, are customary or habitual in some communities but are absent in others where ecological explanations have been discounted. Among mammalian and avian species, cultural variation has previously been identified only for single behaviour patterns, such as the local dialects of song-birds12,13. The extensive, multiple variations now documented for chimpanzees are thus without parallel. Moreover, the combined repertoire of these behaviour patterns in each chimpanzee community is itself highly distinctive, a phenomenon characteristic of human cultures14 but previously unrecognised in non-human species.

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also this one, animals might be more moral than most humans

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10892-018-9275-3

Rowlands (2011, 2012, 2017) has recently argued that some nonhuman animals (hereafter ‘animals’) may be moral creatures, understood as creatures who can behave on the basis of moral motivations. He has argued that, while animals probably lack the sorts of concepts and metacognitive capacities necessary to be held morally responsible for their behaviour, this only excludes them from the possibility of counting as moral agents. There are, however, certain moral motivations that, in his view, may be reasonably thought to fall within the reach of (at least some) animal species, namely, moral emotions such as “sympathy and compassion, kindness, tolerance, and patience, and also their negative counterparts such as anger, indignation, malice, and spite”, as well as “a sense of what is fair and what is not” (Rowlands 2012, 32). If animals do indeed behave on the basis of moral emotions, they should, he argues, be considered moral subjects, even if their lack of sophisticated cognitive capacities prevents us from holding them morally responsible.Footnote 1

The empirical evidence gathered until now suggests that Rowlands may be on the right track and that some animals are indeed capable of behaving morally. Some studies, for instance, have found that animals are sometimes willing to help others when there is no direct gain involved, or even a direct loss. Such apparently altruistic behaviour has been shown by rats (Church 1959; Rice and Gainer 1962; Evans and Braud 1969; Greene 1969; Bartal et al. 2011; Sato et al. 2015), pigeons (Watanabe and Ono 1986), and several primate species (Masserman et al. 1964; Wechkin et al. 1964; Warneken and Tomasello 2006; Burkart et al. 2007; Warneken et al. 2007; Lakshminarayanan and Santos 2008; Cronin et al. 2010; Horner et al. 2011; Schmelz et al. 2017). It has further been found that some animals will offer apparent consolation to individuals in distress, a behaviour that is thought to be triggered by empathic processes and has been observed in primates (de Waal and van Roosmalen 1979; Kutsukake and Castles 2004; Cordoni et al. 2006; Fraser et al. 2008; Clay and de Waal 2013; Palagi et al. 2014), corvids (Seed et al. 2007; Fraser and Bugnyar 2010), canines (Cools et al. 2008; Palagi and Cordoni 2009; Custance and Mayer 2012), elephants (Plotnik and de Waal 2014), horses (Cozzi et al. 2010), budgerigars (Ikkatai et al. 2016), and prairie voles (Burkett et al. 2016). A few studies have also found an aversion to inequity in chimpanzees (Brosnan et al. 2005, 2010), monkeys (Brosnan and de Waal 2003; Cronin and Snowdon 2008; Massen et al. 2012), dogs (Range et al. 2008), and rats (Oberliessen et al. 2016), which suggests the presence of a sense of fairness in these species.Footnote 2

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20 hours ago, rclab said:

 

 

 

 

Good morning Don, Liberty. Well it was until I read this series of posts. The passion, as written, is extreme yet understandable. The idea of the world joining forces to bring this nation to its knees is indeed novel but also paradoxical. If that much of the planet could work together the outlook would be brighter. Sadly too many of our sibling nations are as bad or worse, conserving the environment, than we are. Fingering one individual also will be of brief satisfaction. Similar to ‘killing the messenger’. Our present leader may seem overwhelmed and incompetent. He is the product of a political party/process. He tries to balance all factions and prays for survival. Would he be different if he was elected without being beholden to a Democrat/Republican standard/factions? That, as  it is my own bias, I would like to try. Your comment on voting, Liberty, I don’t agree with, even though I feel your statement rings true. If Satan is running, perhaps that is who we must vote for. That is who we must deal with to save our home. The ($$$) power is the control. We must resolve the ‘What’s in it for me crowd’ to accelerate movement. As simplistic as it sounds, while our genius captains of industry are trying to create outer space playgrounds for the Uber rich, I would bring these devils to the table and say the one T$+ that it takes to get to, terraform and settle Mars is yours if you deliver to me (instead) a way to generate energy cleanly for world wide use. Once Gaia is in self sustaining order we will start thinking about visiting our beyond atmosphere neighbors. The brokers have no National allegiance. Their God is profit and their religion is their own continuance. Yet they are who we must deal with in order to save ourselves so we can eventually move beyond them and their credo. I apologize, Don, Liberty, for the idealistically laced diatribe. As always …

One thing I did like about what Elon Musk did, he used the first real space trip by an entirely private crew to raise money for St Jude's Children's Hospital......over 200 million was raised and 50 million personally came from him.  Also one of the people on the mission was a pediatric cancer survivor and a Physician's Assistant who works at St Jude's.  And that was a real space trip- they were up there for 3 whole days and at around 600 miles up and in orbit!

 

 

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23 hours ago, donsutherland1 said:

My concern is that she is merely carrying out the Administration’s policy. That policy is inconsistent with its rhetoric and even more inconsistent with what’s needed to begin to address climate change.

I wonder if the media even covers these things and questions the administration  about being hypocrites.

 

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5 hours ago, LibertyBell said:

But one must wonder what kind of a disaster we are talking about that would shock people into action.  Climate change has easily killed many more times as many people as this awful pandemic has.  Maybe their ultimate solution is mitigation via telling people to leave coastal areas or they think newly built sea walls will hold up?  Maybe they've decided hey we can't stop this as soon as we need to so let's look at other things like putting up walls between the oceans and the cities and let's consider making people relocate by making flood insurance prices so high they can't afford to live there?  What do you think about that kind of philosophy, Don?

 

I don’t know. A not insignificant slice of the population is indifferent to the terrible toll inflicted by COVID-19. There likely is a level at which the threshold would be reached.

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5 hours ago, LibertyBell said:

I wonder if the media even covers these things and questions the administration  about being hypocrites.

 

There’s some coverage, but not enough. <I>The Washington Post</i> seems to do the best job in linking extreme events to climate change and climate change to the burning of fossil fuels. That last element—who/what is responsible—is often missing in stories that cite climate change. Hence, the kind of public pressure required to begin to roll back fossil fuel production and hold fossil fuel producers liable for climate damages is lacking.

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5 hours ago, LibertyBell said:

These kinds of charts need to have more real life panic and fear injected into them.  For example we need to include what cities will be underwater at what temperature levels and how many millions will die at each temperature level.  Graphs like these are fine for their purpose but to really scare people into action there needs to be an association made with these and real life results.  People can't see 1.5 C or 2 C but they can see at x C temperatures we will lose y millions of people and cities a, b and c will be underwater, etc.

 

The problem is that those producing such charts assume reasonable information literacy. An interactive explainer about how to read such charts and the consequences for each path would add considerable value.

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5 hours ago, LibertyBell said:

But one must wonder what kind of a disaster we are talking about that would shock people into action.  Climate change has easily killed many more times as many people as this awful pandemic has.  Maybe their ultimate solution is mitigation via telling people to leave coastal areas or they think newly built sea walls will hold up?  Maybe they've decided hey we can't stop this as soon as we need to so let's look at other things like putting up walls between the oceans and the cities and let's consider making people relocate by making flood insurance prices so high they can't afford to live there?  What do you think about that kind of philosophy, Don?

 

Good morning Liberty. A program called Property Acquisition and Demolition is buying homes in flood prone areas and returning the parcels to wetlands, as the the ocean gradually encroaches. The ‘wall scenario is, in my estimation, a money making sand against the wind effort. I can envision virtual tours in the far future showing where the city took its last stand. My light hope is that the row houses, like mine, will make a good base for reef coral. Perhaps it will not end up that way. The emerging  statistics/events weigh heavily on the desire for optimism. As always …..

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5 hours ago, LibertyBell said:

One thing I did like about what Elon Musk did, he used the first real space trip by an entirely private crew to raise money for St Jude's Children's Hospital......over 200 million was raised and 50 million personally came from him.  Also one of the people on the mission was a pediatric cancer survivor and a Physician's Assistant who works at St Jude's.  And that was a real space trip- they were up there for 3 whole days and at around 600 miles up and in orbit!

 

 

Yes Liberty, I agree. I do hope that Mr. Musks intentions/motives were pure, considering the long term monetary/power rewards of such endeavors.
This line from the prophetic ‘Eve Of Destruction’ comes back to me; “You can leave here for 4 days in space but when you come back it’s the same old place”. As always ….

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10 hours ago, LibertyBell said:

Chimps are smarter than these people

https://www.nature.com/articles/21415

 

Abstract

As an increasing number of field studies of chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes) have achieved long-term status across Africa, differences in the behavioural repertoires described have become apparent that suggest there is significant cultural variation1,2,3,4,5,6,7. Here we present a systematic synthesis of this information from the seven most long-term studies, which together have accumulated 151 years of chimpanzee observation. This comprehensive analysis reveals patterns of variation that are far more extensive than have previously been documented for any animal species except humans8,9,10,11. We find that 39 different behaviour patterns, including tool usage, grooming and courtship behaviours, are customary or habitual in some communities but are absent in others where ecological explanations have been discounted. Among mammalian and avian species, cultural variation has previously been identified only for single behaviour patterns, such as the local dialects of song-birds12,13. The extensive, multiple variations now documented for chimpanzees are thus without parallel. Moreover, the combined repertoire of these behaviour patterns in each chimpanzee community is itself highly distinctive, a phenomenon characteristic of human cultures14 but previously unrecognised in non-human species.

Makes sense in that they are closest evolution of branched ancestors, That behavioral tendencies may be recognizable… Still there’s a huge scale in degree of complexity and sophistication difference there. 
 

As far as the sardonic take on that other group of people … heh, I wonder if they subjected chimpanzees two a completely non-challenged life of utter provisional subsistence what kind of behavioral differences would they exhibit that differentiates them from their own immediate progenitor parents

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Today, some positive news from Washington:

Today, President Biden is launching a coordinated, interagency effort to respond to extreme heat that threatens the lives and livelihoods of Americans, especially workers, children, and seniors. While climate-related disasters like hurricanes, wildfires, and floods produce dramatic images of devastation, extreme heat often takes place out of sight and out of the news. But heat is the nation’s leading weather-related killer.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/09/20/fact-sheet-biden-administration-mobilizes-to-protect-workers-and-communities-from-extreme-heat/

 

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49 minutes ago, donsutherland1 said:

Today, some positive news from Washington:

Today, President Biden is launching a coordinated, interagency effort to respond to extreme heat that threatens the lives and livelihoods of Americans, especially workers, children, and seniors. While climate-related disasters like hurricanes, wildfires, and floods produce dramatic images of devastation, extreme heat often takes place out of sight and out of the news. But heat is the nation’s leading weather-related killer.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/09/20/fact-sheet-biden-administration-mobilizes-to-protect-workers-and-communities-from-extreme-heat/

 

Preaching to the choir perhaps ... but, I have impassioned that message regarding the health and safety aspect of "big heat," as well as my frustration in why it is not recognized in the pantheon of weather threats:   Floods, Tornadoes, Blizzards, Hurricanes, and Lightning,  for years.    There should be, temperature extremes, added to that list.  ...and it is empirical too!  Heat kills more annually, direct or indirect, than all these combined.

Why?

It's because what we've floated in conjecture.  The average human being responds to what they see, hear ...smell, feel etc.  The 'threat' is not perceived as significant unless it "awes" one of these corporeal "proofs". 

The specter of heat is invisible - ...It can certainly be felt. But the 92 F cumulative morass takes time. And that time seems to lower it's value too much.  But, you know, it's shamefully limiting.  Because we have the ability to engineer our robots to another planet yet have to rely upon such primitive modal response mechanisms. LOL.. kind of funny almost ...

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21 hours ago, Typhoon Tip said:

Makes sense in that they are closest evolution of branched ancestors, That behavioral tendencies may be recognizable… Still there’s a huge scale in degree of complexity and sophistication difference there. 
 

As far as the sardonic take on that other group of people … heh, I wonder if they subjected chimpanzees two a completely non-challenged life of utter provisional subsistence what kind of behavioral differences would they exhibit that differentiates them from their own immediate progenitor parents

I know that with chimpanzees and elephants who lost their mothers when they were young became violent and exhibited symptoms of PTSD and nightmares.  It's really sad and why poachers get lifetime prison sentences.  

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1 hour ago, donsutherland1 said:

Today, some positive news from Washington:

Today, President Biden is launching a coordinated, interagency effort to respond to extreme heat that threatens the lives and livelihoods of Americans, especially workers, children, and seniors. While climate-related disasters like hurricanes, wildfires, and floods produce dramatic images of devastation, extreme heat often takes place out of sight and out of the news. But heat is the nation’s leading weather-related killer.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/09/20/fact-sheet-biden-administration-mobilizes-to-protect-workers-and-communities-from-extreme-heat/

 

Yes but will this response include curbing usage of fossil fuels?

 

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On 9/19/2021 at 11:40 AM, rclab said:

Yes Liberty, I agree. I do hope that Mr. Musks intentions/motives were pure, considering the long term monetary/power rewards of such endeavors.
This line from the prophetic ‘Eve Of Destruction’ comes back to me; “You can leave here for 4 days in space but when you come back it’s the same old place”. As always ….

That reminds me of an excellent old Twilight Zone when the astronaut came back home, but it was to a parallel earth.....

 

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On 9/19/2021 at 11:27 AM, rclab said:

Good morning Liberty. A program called Property Acquisition and Demolition is buying homes in flood prone areas and returning the parcels to wetlands, as the the ocean gradually encroaches. The ‘wall scenario is, in my estimation, a money making sand against the wind effort. I can envision virtual tours in the far future showing where the city took its last stand. My light hope is that the row houses, like mine, will make a good base for reef coral. Perhaps it will not end up that way. The emerging  statistics/events weigh heavily on the desire for optimism. As always …..

I think the larger cities will be spending a lot of money (trillions) on sea walls.  I think Miami, Charleston and even NYC has that in the works.  As well as beach replenishment programs to extend the beach outward for better protection.

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On 9/19/2021 at 11:20 AM, donsutherland1 said:

There’s some coverage, but not enough. <I>The Washington Post</i> seems to do the best job in linking extreme events to climate change and climate change to the burning of fossil fuels. That last element—who/what is responsible—is often missing in stories that cite climate change. Hence, the kind of public pressure required to begin to roll back fossil fuel production and hold fossil fuel producers liable for climate damages is lacking.

I wish the NY Times was better with this but for some reason they've been lukewarm.

 

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45 minutes ago, Typhoon Tip said:

Preaching to the choir perhaps ... but, I have impassioned that message regarding the health and safety aspect of "big heat," as well as my frustration in why it is not recognized in the pantheon of weather threats:   Floods, Tornadoes, Blizzards, Hurricanes, and Lightning,  for years.    There should be, temperature extremes, added to that list.  ...and it is empirical too!  Heat kills more annually, direct or indirect, than all these combined.

Why?

It's because what we've floated in conjecture.  The average human being responds to what they see, hear ...smell, feel etc.  The 'threat' is not perceived as significant unless it "awes" one of these corporeal "proofs". 

The specter of heat is invisible - ...It can certainly be felt. But the 92 F cumulative morass takes time. And that time seems to lower it's value too much.  But, you know, it's shamefully limiting.  Because we have the ability to engineer our robots to another planet yet have to rely upon such primitive modal response mechanisms. LOL.. kind of funny almost ...

hey on the positive side, John, you now have much more material to write about for sci fi!

 

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1 hour ago, LibertyBell said:

Yes but will this response include curbing usage of fossil fuels?

 

Not initially. But since the lease sale was announced, the Administration has appealed a court ruling that prevents it from suspending such sales. Perhaps the criticism that followed that announcement played some role.

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3 hours ago, LibertyBell said:

NYC just signed an agreement with Canada for power sharing to be 100% renewable energy in NYC govt by 2025 and the mayor and governor both announced urban farms which will lower air pollution and improve the greenery all around the city the city will be 30% greenery by 2030!

 

36 minutes ago, Typhoon Tip said:

There’s an article floating about the mediasphere re China halting coal in capitulating to CC concerns/international pressure.  

Good evening Tip, Liberty. The juxtaposition of your posts have got me to wondering. As always ……

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16 hours ago, LibertyBell said:

NYC just signed an agreement with Canada for power sharing to be 100% renewable energy in NYC govt by 2025 and the mayor and governor both announced urban farms which will lower air pollution and improve the greenery all around the city the city will be 30% greenery by 2030!

Great ...all they need then would be to clean up the shit stained turpitude down on the streets -

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On 9/19/2021 at 3:37 PM, Typhoon Tip said:

Makes sense in that they are closest evolution of branched ancestors, That behavioral tendencies may be recognizable… Still there’s a huge scale in degree of complexity and sophistication difference there. 
 

As far as the sardonic take on that other group of people … heh, I wonder if they subjected chimpanzees two a completely non-challenged life of utter provisional subsistence what kind of behavioral differences would they exhibit that differentiates them from their own immediate progenitor parents

That made me picture a bunch of slow humans nodding in rhythm to the sound of music in their headsets, sitting on park benches aimlessly sipping on their diet cokes and munching on processed fast food as their brain cells slowly die off....

 

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On 9/20/2021 at 12:15 PM, Typhoon Tip said:

Preaching to the choir perhaps ... but, I have impassioned that message regarding the health and safety aspect of "big heat," as well as my frustration in why it is not recognized in the pantheon of weather threats:   Floods, Tornadoes, Blizzards, Hurricanes, and Lightning,  for years.    There should be, temperature extremes, added to that list.  ...and it is empirical too!  Heat kills more annually, direct or indirect, than all these combined.

Why?

It's because what we've floated in conjecture.  The average human being responds to what they see, hear ...smell, feel etc.  The 'threat' is not perceived as significant unless it "awes" one of these corporeal "proofs". 

The specter of heat is invisible - ...It can certainly be felt. But the 92 F cumulative morass takes time. And that time seems to lower it's value too much.  But, you know, it's shamefully limiting.  Because we have the ability to engineer our robots to another planet yet have to rely upon such primitive modal response mechanisms. LOL.. kind of funny almost ...

Interview on TWC it looks like the naming of big heat waves might be coming as well as the definition of a "heat season" much like the tropical season.  The goal is to draw more attention to anomalous heat and to warn the public because it is a far bigger killer than tropical systems are.

 

Maybe we will have heat chasers just like we have storm chasers.  I feel a rush when the old thermo hits 100 degrees!

 

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11 hours ago, LibertyBell said:

Interview on TWC it looks like the naming of big heat waves might be coming as well as the definition of a "heat season" much like the tropical season.  The goal is to draw more attention to anomalous heat and to warn the public because it is a far bigger killer than tropical systems are.

 

Maybe we will have heat chasers just like we have storm chasers.  I feel a rush when the old thermo hits 100 degrees!

 

Well boo- yah

                                  .... for a 100 years over due.  But, such is progress -

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15 hours ago, LibertyBell said:

Interview on TWC it looks like the naming of big heat waves might be coming as well as the definition of a "heat season" much like the tropical season.  The goal is to draw more attention to anomalous heat and to warn the public because it is a far bigger killer than tropical systems are.

 

Maybe we will have heat chasers just like we have storm chasers.  I feel a rush when the old thermo hits 100 degrees!

 

Liberty, based on your last sentence, I’m guessing you were exposed to the forky variant. As always …..

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