Vice-Regent

By the time populations stabilize the damage will already be inflicted and there will be a mass die-off. That would be a failure to transition. Dangerous mentality. Climate change will save us from capitalism. it's the consumption per person that is killing us right now. I only want to reduce it so we can keep our current standard of living without adverse effects. It's not enough to stabilize where we are and we are far from that holding steady on population. The population will infact never stabilize. It will rapidly collapse. It will look like a bell-curve on population charts. So i'm not sure if it matters at this point what we do in first-world nations.

The scale of the problem is completely different. You are talking about phasing out a few industries which utilized CFCs and now we are talking about phasing out civilization as we know it. The moral of the story is if the problem can be solved it will be solved within reason. Climate change is a predicament with no solutions. Civilization is fundamentally incompatible with the biosphere. The science of steady-state civilizations is rather interesting but it is my belief that as long as capitalism is our model they will all fail in the end. Ultimately we may need to go to war with capitalism particularly because it's consuming resources better utilized for steady-state civilizations and the urgency of climate change and the global biosphere. Large areas of agricultural and urban lands must return to nature as we attempt to re-stabilize the carbon cycle. People don't want steady-state because it places restrictions on the individual's freedom but you can counter this by limiting the population to the planet's natural carrying capacity of 1 billion humans or 250 million humans with a 1950s per capita usage of resources. Think about the beauty of a stable world. One or two children for each applicable couple. There's nothing wrong with limiting population especially as infant mortality has markedly decreased. Maybe with the passing of the generations we can move into a better future. I am not sold on the idea of the species being fundamentally untenable. The challenge of our time is collapse and how to manage collapse in the least damaging manner. The secondary challenge is ending all emissions before 2035 by all means necessary including up to accelerationism (the process of accelerating economic collapse) and warfare on a global scale. I sincerely doubt we can continue emitting GHGs beyond 2050. It's simply not possible (because civilization will be destroyed by climate destabilization) but the additional 15 years of silenced emissions would help us recover faster in the future.

Cross-posted from my reddit account...

Include your's truly in the list of the condemned. Is all of this really worth losing these beautiful places forever? (for all intents and purposes) This is why I compare capitalism to a modern form of slavery. If people had freewill they would have already walked away. It's that simple. Stop debating and go to war with these assclowns. We needed a sense of cohesion for 50+ years now. There is absolutely zero cohesion in society and we have this ridiculous form of identity politics. Shall I continue to explain why we are so ****ed? I think not. Everyone knows that they are willing participants in this system but remember when it finally stops working for you that nobody will be there to bail you out. You will be alone in this hell that you created for yourself.

Not even. Just as much can be accomplished by removing the platform from which bad genes sustain and profligate. This is where I differ from my early 20th century brethren. Believe me we have been doing that for a long time. It just didn't arrive into most people's awareness.

I am willing to genetically manipulate the species to make us compatible with a commune-like existence. Most people are unwilling to explore outside of a certain boundary and the disasters of the World Wars were sure to lock in a profligate and greed-based society and prior to that the rampant colonialism throughout the world and profligate exploitation. The lack of trust among people and in institutions is astounding to the point of psychotic breaks from reality. The trauma flowing like blood from the soul of humanity and into the machine. Fueling it's short-term ephemeral existence and destroying an incalculable number of species in the process. Including our own. What you are implying here is that humans have no chance of ever being a viable species (due to the tool manipulator factor and Jevons Paradox) but I am not sure that you understand the outcome of your own thoughts. The perils of exceptionally high levels of IQ and greatly diminished or equal EQ (Emotional Intelligence). Remember the psychopath has the highest survival to death ratio in civilization. Civilization is an invention of psychopathic humans. There are a plethora of additional traits that come to the fore such as lethargy and depression which are considered as natural adaptations to civilization. This is a perfect combination for exploitation of the many by the few. Most species are not self-terminating. They simply succumb to scarcity limits and die out and they fail to adapt fast enough to changing conditions. Humans are very unique in this regard and to just give up when alternatives exist is very unacceptable. I am familiar with your kind - fatalistically hopeless. "The world's in a bad way, my man, And bound to be worse before it mends; Better lie up in the mountain here Four or five centuries, While the stars go over the lonely ocean, Said the old father of wild pigs, Plowing the fallow on Mal Paso Mountain." "Keep clear of the dupes that talk democracy And the dogs that talk revolution, Drunk with talk, liars and believers. I believe in my tusks. Long live freedom and damn the ideologies, Said the gamey black-maned boar Tusking the turf on Mal Paso Mountain"

As far as I am concerned PVs and renewables allow additional and faster exploitation of the environment and thus I am opposed to anything but the complete replacement of global industrial civilization with locally based sustenance communities. Ecologists have known about the problems associated with renewables for some time. The Jevons Paradox cannot be discounted on this matter as is commonly cited by pro-renewable proponents. We will be reaching peak oil shortly (circa 2035) and thus you will come to understand why governments push and subsidize renewables. Same game different circumstances. The land use of solar PV will occupy regions better utilized for farming and forestry. (Most installations will not be rooftop solar) This is how they operate by driving up the cost of living for everyone else they intend to depopulate the world while the rich reap all the rewards on a dieing planet. Plunder the world until there is nothing left

Slip sliding' away... as usual. There is no moral high ground only cause and effect which happens to follow the laws of universal karma. In other news the Pope has outlawed environmental exploitation. Religion comes to the fore at the final hour but it's too late now. The enemy is us Not to be deluded by dreams. To know that great civilizations have broken down into violence, and their tyrants come, many times before. When open violence appears, to avoid it with honor or choose the least ugly faction; these evils are essential. By dreams of universal justice or happiness. These dreams will not be fulfilled. Robinson Jeffers 1936 Oh cracked and twilight mirrors ever to catch One color, one glinting flash, of the splendor of things. I think, here is your emblem To hang in the future sky...

Gaia will self-regulate the excess heat by destroying your house and flooding global civilization. Are you still enthusiastic about your prospects?

The sadness of the shore has become the sadness of everyone. This is justice.

This. We need a convincing argument and escape hatch for the Peak Oil problem which will hit us around 2040 on the BAU path. As it stands now ... there are are 2 possible explanations for the existence and vastness of the universe. (and it's emptiness) 1.) All other planets, galaxies, and suns are byproducts of an environment designed to create us and only us, i.e. the sheer impossibility of our existence has been overcome by infinite possibility. 2.) The universe is of unintelligent design and our existence is largely a mistake. As some have subscribed to it as a cancer or metastasis arising out of the wider universe. Thus we are heading to the dustbin in short order. The true purpose of the universe remains illusive and it is assumed to be the base reality of existence (this is not the case in outcome #1). Option #1 makes our fate far more insidious. It implies that we have squandered the opportunity of a lifetime for short-term hubris and greed. The ultimate hell analogy comes to breakfast. We may be the last generation of humans to exist. It's sort of a classical argument between emotion and science (good vs.evil or Kairos vs. Chronos). Not to say emotion is unintelligent rather it is more capable of detecting evidence beyond the realm of empirical reasoning. Kairos (Ancient Greek: καιρός) is an Ancient Greek word meaning the right, critical, or opportune moment.[1] The ancient Greeks had two words for time: chronos (χρόνος) and kairos. The former refers to chronological or sequential time, while the latter signifies a proper or opportune time for action. While chronos is quantitative, kairos has a qualitative, permanent nature.[2] Kairos also means weather in Modern Greek. The plural, καιροί (kairoi (Ancient and Modern Greek)) means the times. Kairos is a term, idea, and practice that has been applied in several fields including classical rhetoric, modern rhetoric, digital media, Christian theology, and science.

Everything needs to go right (100 percent of the time) for Type 0 civilizations to function correctly for a long period of time (1-2 millennium). Keep in mind the fossil-fuel era has only existed for about 250 years and we are already at the end of the road (apparently). Subtle things matter like how you educate the population, your cultural values (religion versus secular), the uniformity of your education, childhood nutrition, eugenics (keeping the IQ above a certain level). It's much easier to walk away from civilization than struggle and adapt civilization to human needs. There's a reason why we still haven't been able to debunk the Fermi paradox. People have collectively chosen to walk away from the long-term reality of our situation and we are looking to pay the ultimate price for our indifference. When you take a step back and abandon your hubris it's easy to see how the wealth inequality and general unfairness of our world is tied into our unsustainable future. We are not giving people a fair run at life and we are exposing young people to unnecessary risks for no clear reason.

Add some mythology to the story you want to tell yourself. I find hell to be an appropriate analogy for where we are going and this is something we have collectively set out to become.

Such a philosophy is at odds with Capitalism. I know I will keep hammering this idea until we see the changes required to avert this catastrophe. The only problem I am beginning to encounter is the fact that anthropogenic global warming may be unavoidable (regardless of the economic system in place) but the extinction event is not a certainty. Important distinction

What matters is context. You need to be willing to kill people indiscriminately in order to sustain capitalism in the 21st century and civilization for that matter. Capitalism is incompatible with environmental reform. There is no rising tide floats all boats. Richard Lindzen is provoking a false dichotomy. Either we shut off the electricity or AGW and peak oil will do it for us. I don't understand trolls like Lindzen and they need to go crawl back under the rock they came out of. The solar argument is still a thing in 2019? How is that possible. Ad-infinitum until it's your family that is thrown under the proverbial bus for the greater good of capitalism. All of this wall to wall chaos in the modern world need not happen or perhaps I am falling victim to wishful thinking. Perhaps this was our destiny. I would like to find out but we may never know.

Sorry to go OT but Trump's family is the most profound Nazi cohort ever conceived in America. People like JB and his conservative leanings don't even understand who they voted for. That about sums up democracy in 2019. An absolute crap-shoot founded on ignorance and lobbyists (money incentives). I may not be a leftist but at least I understand why the far-right has never gained any traction for a sustained amount of time. Nobody likes bigots and nobody likes self-righteous nationalists who don't serve the interests of the common and peaceful folk. Most people who seek positions of authority and power are psychopathic. JB is completely out of control. I tried to talk some sense into him via his Youtube page. I wonder if he is being payed to spout this horseshit. He's putting his reputation and life into the shredder. There must be a reason. People keep dieing and suffering on behalf of these war criminals. They never self-correct or bite the hand that feeds them poison. Look at how many people died for Hitler, Stalin, and FDR combined. Trump is just the latest installment of these stains on our beautiful humanity.

Think of it like paying up for past debts. This is ironic because our economy and capitalism are entirely based on debt borrowing and credit in modern times. I believe the national debt is now 2.5 times larger than the annual gross domestic product. Starting somewhere on the path to changing mindsets and worldviews will help us prepare the world for the few of us that survive the collapse of civilization. (and it stands to reason the most worthy of us - i.e. the least offenders of the crime) In our case we have borrowed too much debt from the Earth's ecosystem and now we must pay the price. Capitalism is the enemy of our children. The enemy is us. (Anyone older than 35 years)

As if that was the only dichotomy available? This is doing a unfortunate disservice to our prospects. People always become defensive when capitalism is at stake. It doesn't matter what you want or what I want. Capitalism will be removed voluntarily or involuntarily. A planned transition is always easier than an unplanned transition. As well nuclear power has real potential to turn the tables in favor of human civilization.

Contrarily you could take the Bill Gates route which is focus on rapid Carbon Sequestration and Nuclear Power. The budget for these sectors should be at minimum around 2 trillion each year (500 billion for R&D and 1.5 trillion for infrastructure development). What I don't understand is the reluctance to throw all of your chips onto the table in a dire situation. In a system like Capitalism this will never happen due to the inherent risk in the for-profit financial model. We should be scaling down our overhead across the board. Our housing should be efficient and affordable. We should be reducing transportation, grounding all non-essential aviation, etc. The enemy is the for-profit model, i.e. capitalism. Something like the above could be accomplished in a technocratic civilization. (by necessity demanding the cessation of democracy)

Exactly and aging liberal boomers like Obama (who are too old to be inundated). He is divested from the future with good reason.

All of the above should of been in place during the Carter administration and subsequently. We are too late for semantical efforts.

It's not. Nobody has ever told me why. It's more of a novelty.

I believe cross-referencing posts from another forum is against the rules. Just take care guys. Don't end up with the weenie tag or worse.

The thing I remember most about Sandy is the downed trees. We lucked out because they were half-defoliated because it was late October.