psuhoffman

That is exactly the opposite of what we want. I will give it another week or so before making any conclusions but I really hope this isn’t the dominant winter base state showing itself. If so it’s going to be a real struggle, even by our standards. I’ll probably check back out until things look more positive. I don’t want to repeat the obvious when it’s negative. Hopefully by New Years we will see the light on the other side.

Silence Perhaps he is enjoying the holiday.

There are some signs the PV will weaken again towards day 15. There is also a camp within the ens that starts to build the epo ridge over the top towards day 15. The op gfs does this too. That’s one way out to a pattern that’s conducive to snow. Until then we can hope for a fluke or a flawed sloppy setup. They can happen mid winter pretty easy in a “non shutout” look and as others have said without a strong SE ridge we have a shot but anything is a long shot until we get the HL look to improve.

I haven’t seen anything from Massiello in days. You just inferring from his silence or did he actually say something pertinent that I missed?

I agree with this, from the perspective of a seasonal scale it was a thread the needle.

Some have called that storm a “thread the needle” but imo it was a very good patter (just not long lived) for a snowstorm. perfectly placed east based EPO ridge, +PNA, -AO, and a 50/50 with just enough ridging in the west based NAO domain. The NAO was probably technically neutral there but there are enough other good things going on to mitigate. We don’t need a perfect NAO if everything else is lined up right. Problem that winter was that PAC alignment was a short anomaly from the base state the AO/NAO were ok that winter but the PAC with that AK vortex and huge ridge in the central PAC took a huge crap on us most of the winter. The one time it took a break we got a big snowstorm

We completely wasted 2 weeks of a beautiful -AO period because of a hostile pac. That’s the most discouraging thing.

@Bob Chill merry Christmas. I don’t have time for a deep analysis but there aren’t any great analogs to what some runs are showing wrt the -pna,++AO and still cold. All the current ncep analogs had a SE ridge and were pretty crappy. So either this will be a really anomalous period or the guidance is flawed and expect more SE ridge as it gets closer It’s a pretty mixed bag where this pattern progresses too. Some of the analogs go on to crap winters (2002,1992). Others go on to decent or even great years after (2000,1979). Others are a mixed bag. But the common denominator is the NAO. They mostly remained flawed PAC side but the years that got some Atlantic blocking later improved. Years the NAO stayed positive sucked. Past resukts don’t always predict future outcomes so....just a quick rundown of how this pattern usually plays out and where it goes.

@frd wrt isotherms forecast...his ideas wrt to tpv seen good now but a lot of what he used as causality I don’t see. AAM has only been slightly low lately after a short period slightly above normal early Dec. And now it’s rising and forecast to enter a high state soon. Furthermore we have most definitely not been in a Nina like pattern. A lot of what he expected December to lead to where we are now didn’t take place. Yet we may now be where he predicted anyways. Hopefully this isn’t then as a shot at isotherm, it’s simply I am highly skeptical of all seasonal forecasts (anything past 2 weeks) including my own. They are all predictions based on predictions based on predictions. Sometimes $&@& just happens.

I hope. But att guidance is accelerating the start of that regime and intensifying the look. If true this one is a gut punch. You all know I am an optimist when warranted but I don’t pull punches either when it’s bad. This would be a gut punch. My optimism has centered on the fact the high latitudes have looked persistently favorable imo. Even when the tpv was unfavorably locates there was still ridging intruding into the high latitudes somewhere. An unfavorable tpv location can be a fast recovery issue. It’s unlikeky a compact tpv stays stationary for long. But a huge intense vortex taking over the whole High latitudes can be a whole season problem. Seeing this blows up what I was handing my hat on. That said I’ll end on the only positive which is the guidance could be wrong and sometimes that look can be temporary. It’s not much but it’s all I got. I may take a break for a while because I’m not going to blow smoke but I also don’t want to fill up the thread with doom and gloom. So until I see some positive signs I’ll probably lay low.

It’s not the bouncing around. It’s that it starts to intensify and consolidate. Opposite of what we want. Goes from this... to this....

You’re the master of exaggeration. But I’ll give you this...what all the guidance shows up top starting day 7 on is extremely troubling.

12z EPS still looks like cutter/cold dry/warm up imo.

@C.A.P.E. @Bob Chill all of this pertains to week 2 since week 1 is toast...so everythOmg we’re discussing is low probability. Disclaimer out of the way.... I do think there is a crack open for something during the transitional period early week 2. It’s a long shot but not out of the question. Need timing to be in our side wrt wave spacing. So it’s not all bad. And what I’m about to say is dealing with stuff that’s post day 10 so there is a high chance it’s wrong anyways. That said I’m pretty disgusted with what I see long range. The CFS is ok as cape pointed out but I really put no stock in it. It’s been running “behind” on ideas for a while. Right now it’s still got the mjo idea of a run towards cold phases that other guidance had 72 hours ago. They have abandoned that. I suspect the cfs will catch on soon. Now im not buying the current look either, the tropical forcing had been a convoluted mess the models can’t handle for a while and they flip ideas every few days. But saying “it might be wrong” isn’t a great reason for optimism either. But hope I suppose. The current struggles don’t bother me much because we can recover from this quick and it’s December. A misplaced but otherwise compact tpv messing up the epo with an otherwise good look up top isn’t a long term winter long killer imo. But that look the eps and gefs has day 15 last night would be a disaster going into mid January. It might have been somewhat cold day 15 from the leftover day 10 shot, but roll that ahead and it would be a raging se ridge a few days later and that look, with a strengthening PV taking over from epo to NAO up top is a pattern that can ruin a LONG period and having that set in the second week is January is a Ji meltdown worthy event. Now before people head for bridges and say Psuhoffman cancelled winter...I think it’s wrong. It goes against the analogs and pattern progression I expect. But seeing that doesn’t make me feel better. I would rather have guidance on my side than not. So yea I’m slightly shaken by that day 15 look. I won’t really buy it though until it progresses consistently into day 10. But if that really is what’s coming going into the second week of January, then I will admit things are not going the way I expected.

Purely analyzing that cfs look, I actually like the Atlantic better than the pac. That’s a clear -NAO (east based though) with ridging over the top of the trough. The epo ridge is a west based epo. For the epo to really be ideal for snow we need it centered right along the coast and poking a ridge into northwest North America. That position without any Atlantic help would lead to a southeast ridge. You can see the se ridge trying but being muted by the NAO. That could set up an interesting battleground across our area. I’d take that look over a lot of the other options.

@showmethesnow @C.A.P.E. The look briefly looks promising around day 10. We get a dump of cold post day 10 from that very temporary -NAO -epo. There might be a very short window but att guidance says it’s pretty dry. But after that the look across guidance is honestly not that good for a significant snow. It’s hard to find any examples of a decent snowstorm with that h5 look. It’s not a shutout look...we can get some snow in most patterns except a big SE ridge in January. But we would be hoping for some kind of progressive wave. Anything amplified would cut. Sound familiar. Rather than try to work with that I’m just holding on to hope that it’s wrong after day 10. I don’t really want to spend prime climo stuck in a pattern where our best shot is to root for strung out waves. ETA: root for the GEPS.

For now I’m hanging my hat on the fact the Atlantic looks good through day 10. After that hopefully it’s wrong. But the issue is it slides the tpv east. That pushes the NAO ridge east. We really need that to either cross the pole or drop. But I’m going to be mildly annoyed if we waste the first extended NAO ridging for 2 weeks then just as the pac gets better the Atlantic goes to crap.

That’s a colder look... but not as snowy typically. I preferred the seasonal temps with ridging over the top look better.

One positive sign so far is that there wants to be some blocking up top. When the Atlantic was hostile the epo took over. Now that the tpv is on that side there is ridging on the Atlantic side. So far there have been enough mitigating factors to prevent snow here. But if we keep a somewhat favorable blocky high latitude profile through prime climo that is unlikely to continue.

Eps looks good day 10...and the trough lingers because of it day 11-15, but I don’t like the overall look day 15. It will be really hard to sustain any cold with that look up top. Luckily guidance has very low skill there past day 10 and all the guidance agrees on a pretty good look day 10. Just have to hope the Atlantic doesn’t completely break down like the euro indicates because nothing supports the pacific becoming favorable enough absent any Atlantic help. Doesn’t mean the pac stays hostile, just it looks ambiguous and not overly hostile or helpful in the long range which given the very conflicted tropical signals makes perfect sense.

Naw we get big snows from storms that start out 300 miles north of Toronto and dive due south all the time. All you can take from that range and that crazy nonsense is the gfs thinks the amplification and blocking of the pattern is likely to continue.

No one mentioned it, probably because its worthless...but the euro weeklies did have a nice NAO signature straight through the whole run. Pacific is mediocre at best the whole time though.

Looking at the individual members, there is agreement on a big cutter day 9-11 and then most of the members that cause the "trough" look in the east after that are just cold and dry with a big high parked over the east. There are some wet members...but they differ on things and take another cutter over after that. There really is no support among either camp for a frozen event despite the h5 look. Its split between cold/dry and warm/wet.

Ideally that is how it works...creating a feedback loop in our favor.

sooner or later the wave train of 50/50's has to pay off!!! We only need a couple good hits to make a winter here.