LVwxHistorian

52 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

Now LV to put a fine point on this great discussion

Recent Annual Actual snow reports by NWS Trained observers - East Nantmeal Twp PA (EN) vs West Chester PA (WC) (only 9.1 miles apart) to highlight some years with great variability over less than 10 miles

2017 - EN 34.9" / WC 15.8"

2013 - EN 32.6" / WC  18.8"

2012 - EN 21.3" / WC 11.2"

2010 - EN 72.4" / WC - 53.0"

2007 - EN 29.6" / WC - 13.6"

 

 

So what you're saying is that you're the reincarnation or relative of this Gordon?! LOL

I understand that farther inland and higher elevation typically get bigger totals, but I'm talking about a specific time period and specific storms where the disparity is monumental, much more than the data you are citing.

And you haven't yet addressed any of these 4 specific amounts yet.

9 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

LV again just to highlight the incredible variability in reported snow totals and highlight how difficult it is to disprove higher totals.

Back in February 2010 - ABE airport reported 42.9" of snow for the month - Here in East Nantmeal Twp in Chester County only 35 miles SW of that spot a NWS trained spotter (me) recorded 62.8"of snow a 20" difference over 30+ miles in 1 month - a 48% variance!

 

I don't see your data in Climatological Data, is it published somewhere?  And it's about 38 miles. 

And Phila had 51.5, much closer to you in amount and distance

And the Dec. 1909 storm totals were remarkably uniform from Phila and Reading (21"), LV 20 to 24, and central NJ, 21".   

The banding could never have always set up right over this guy's station -- I'm sorry, it's just not possible

3 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

LV - it simply points out the variability in snow totals over short distances. I will post some real doozies between here and surrounding locations just in the past 15 years along with the rest of the data I am analyzing. Thanks!

Ok I look forward to seeing them.  And I didn't mean to insult him -- just his snow-measuring abilities!

1 minute ago, MGorse said:

I think we can do without the name calling.

Bozo was referring to this observer not Mr. Chesco

2 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

Christmas Eve 1966 - Coatesville 21.2"  - West Chester 22" - while the Lehigh Valley and PA only received about 12"

Thats true what's your ponit, wasn't this goofball dead by then?!!

And you guys had lightning that caused house fires -- so localized convection

4 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

Always enjoy these data mines!! I have so many examples of huge differences in snow totals across very short distances

Any way back to February 1899. While not topping the Coatesville monthly total (heck someone has to be 1st it just is what it is!) here are some other relatively close monthly totals some to help corroborate totals

Warrenton VA - 54"

Egg Harbor City NJ - 52"

Ellicott City MD - 52"

Have you looked up any of these storms in local newspapers?  - they usually mention totals.

And you're talking places far away, I'm talking about the nearest stations to this bozo!!

1 minute ago, tcutter said:

As someone who grew up in Coatesville, you also have to understand that the surrounding areas are considered Coatesville too so it is possible back then that some totals were just outside the city proper. I grew up much closer to Honey Brook which is 738 elevation (in West Caln) and we always seemed to get higher totals then south of us in the Coatesville "area"

 Its published station elevation is 380'

2 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

Some more back up for the February 1899 totals - Coatesville's 3 day total was 45.3" - Washington DC reported 34" even Cape May NJ 32" of snow - Easton MD reported over 50" of snow that month!

Yeah those are nowhere near 70"!

And BTW the Morgantown 50" total was backed up by a 49" total at Devault, also measured by the Turnpike

18 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

There are so many examples of huge differences over short distances in Chester and Berks County - how about the March 19-21, 1958 snow event??  50 inches at Morgantown while only 12 miles SE of there at Coatesville only 19" and yet then we go just 11 miles east of Coatesville and find West Chester back up to 32". Do we just go back and say Morgantown is wrong because it is an outlier? Good news for that storm is we have photos of the snow depth with trucks trapped at the PA Turnpike entrace. You cannot go back and disprove snow totals they are very very variable and to Mike G's post the set ups are different plus in the absence of any radar data to actually track and validate the banding it is impossible.  Revisionist history like wiping data will not change the fact it happened

I have a very good answer for March 1958: since it did occur right at the equinox with a high sun angle, elevation played a critical role as you alluded to in the difference between Coatesville and West Chester.  And Morgantown is the highest around there at 595'.

So April 1894 storm would be even more elevation and inland dependent than March 1958:  And Coatesville that is 75' lower than West Chester got 21" more in April 1894!!!

And the other ones, Jan 1905, Feb 1899 and Dec 1909, occurred in winter when elevation plays a minimal role.

You are right about there being big totals from April 1894 inland at Harrisburg, 18" and Lebanon, 25" but nowhere near Coatesville.  

If you really want to clear this up, go to your local library and pull up local newspapers that corroborate him.

8 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

There are so many examples of huge differences over short distances in Chester and Berks County - how about the March 19-21, 1958 snow event??  50 inches at Morgantown while only 12 miles SE of there at Coatesville only 19" and yet then we go just 11 miles east of Coatesville and find West Chester back up to 32". Do we just go back and say Morgantown is wrong because it is an outlier? Good news for that storm is we have photos of the snow depth with trucks trapped at the PA Turnpike entrace. You cannot go back and disprove snow totals they are very very variable and to Mike G's post the set ups are different plus in the absence of any radar data to actually track and validate the banding it is impossible.  Revisionist history like wiping data will not change the fact it happened

I have a very good answer for March 1958: since it did occur right at the equinox with a high sun angle, elevation played a critical role as you alluded to in the difference between Coatesville and West Chester.  And Morgantown is the highest around there at 595'.

So April 1894 storm would be even more elevation and inland dependent than March 1958:  And Coatesville that is 75' lower than West Chester got 21" more in April 1894!!!

And the other ones, Jan 1905, Feb 1899 and Dec 1909, occurred in winter when elevation plays a minimal role.

You are right about there being big totals from April 1894 inland at Harrisburg, 18" and Lebanon, 25" but nowhere near Coatesville.  

If you really want to clear this up, go to your local library and pull up local newspapers that corroborate him.

14 minutes ago, MGorse said:

I first thought about the gradient that occurs from east to west across Chester County, as it can be significant. Have you contacted NCEI (formally NCDC) regarding this? Also, are there any available reports closer to Coatesville to better understand if those values are completely off the rails or not? As ChesoWX stated above, that location was a long standing COOP station. It would be interesting to see what the synoptic setup was during those dates, as I would imagine at least some included intense banding.

Kennett square is 11 miles away and West Chester is 12 miles away!  

How could this guy ALWAYS record such high values -- 20" difference over these distances??  No way.  It doesn't take much to see that there is something seriously wrong here.

Elevations about the same: Coatesville 380', KS: 275', WC: 455'

I've contacted NCEI, hopefully they will get rid of these ridiculous totals -- it's a terrible contamination of the record

So this is really pissing me off -- bogus snowfall from probably a drunken observer at Coatesville around the turn of the century.  Here are his values compared to the 2 closest stations at the time, Kennett Square and West Chester

April 10-12, 1894:   29.2"   KS - 8.8" and WC - 7.8"

Feb.  1899:   69.8"    KS -- 46", WC - 38" 

 Jan 25, 1905:  29"    KS - 18", WC - 14.3"

Dec 25-26, 1909:  38"   KS -- 23" and at WC -- 21"

Come on!!!

Hopefully NCDC will do something about this ridiculousness

You didn't know you were going up against a real weather historian, did you, LOL!  

This drunken observer W.J. Gordon was around for the DEC 1909 too:  38 inches when Kennett Square had 23" and 21" at West Chester??!!  

Come on!!

Your arguments are crumbling.  

Hopefully NCDC will do something about this ridiculousness

West Chester had 32 inches in March 1958 storm and it's 20 miles from Morgantown!!  

IPS-07E23916-1F10-4274-ADA6-55858A391565.pdf

IPS-790AB565-6314-4896-A044-EAC30BAE3F84.pdf

2 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

I agree - as someone I work with once said - once seen it cannot be unseen LOL!!

While there was no NWS it was validated by who was the official weather service prior to NWS formation - The US Dept of Agriculture - see the below part of the offical record from the NCDC

Are you referring to "Best Available Record" stamp?   that just means this is the most legible copy they have.  Have you looked at other stations in the county??

4 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

LOL! they were indeed certified by the NWS offices and are part of the official records for Pennsylvania.

There was no NWS back then!!  And no quality control -- just look at all nearby stations.  We covered this in one of your posts last year.  Feb. 1899 and Jan 1905, and April 1894 storms are way inflated.  I'm gonna get back on NCDCs case to review them.

BTW your picture is super creepy, LOL!

17 minutes ago, ChescoWx said:

I am considering authoring the definitive "Everything You Wanted to Know About the Unique and Dynamic Climate of Chester County PA In the Philadelphia Suburbs"   Is the title too long? Is $14.90 the right price? So many questions....

Sounds good but just don't include all that bogus snowfall data from 1890s and 1900s!!   I think that observer was a weenie, inflating figures just to get attention!

To my Wx book post, -- I need your input, LOL!!

16 hours ago, KamuSnow said:

I like living in these parts, although more snow would be nice. I've been to Alaska but not in the winter, and I wouldn't mind experiencing something like this:

Complete misprint, or photoshop??!!

On 11/30/2021 at 8:18 PM, ChescoWx said:

I see ABE reported their 18th coldest November in 90 years of records. Here in Chesco only good for 64th coldest in 128 years of records....but of note this is now the 10th below normal November in the last 15 years!! November is looking like our peak of cold season departure months during our current phase of cyclical climate change

where did you see that?

Nice -- I had already moved out of the Valley by then

Mine's gotta be 1989, 3 inches of snow at Allentown the evening before.  Go ahead, call me a weenie!