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Central PA - Winter 2018-19


pasnownut
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54 minutes ago, pasnownut said:

Man it is just depressing outside.  Just looked at the overnights, and it looks like the models just had WAY too much to drink last evening and puked all over us. 

GEFS 500MB for next week.....if it's right....just dont look.  Sauss, you'll get to try out the new shorts you got for Christmas.

As usual, back edge of LR shows us getting better as the flow gets right w/ ridging/split flow out west and zonal in the east, but as the NH is largely void of bigtime cold, it will have some work to do to get things right.  In truth at 372 it looks much like what we thought was coming in the medium range, so proceed w/ caution if you wanna start buying the mid month flip.  IF MJO gets into 7 heads for 8 i'll start buying stock in it, as it has driven the meteo bus.  SOI is coming down and now neutral so that too could help to get things right.  I've been thinking the SSW would be factoring in to guidance and those i follow still thinks its happening, but it's voodo stuff to some and while it can really help to dislodge the cold, if it has, it isnt being shown on the guidance.

Delayed and hopefully not denied.  Havent gotten the snowmobiles ready yet....still looks like i have a week or 2.  BOO

I know some guys love to digest the progs every 6 or 12 hours and watch the ebb's and flows but I think the models are showing their normal issue with pattern changes and the regular progression of the "change of the seasons" as it were.   There can certainly be some argument made that our apparent weather is going to change from the past as the oceans continue to warm so strictly relying on my method of forecasting long range, which includes a dash of models and a pinch of common sense and seasonal history, can be dangerous.  However I still think January is going to end up being the flip of December in that by mid month we will be pushing double digit plus departures in the temp department with the only chance of real wintry precip being one of lucky timing of moisture being nearby when one of these transient cool periods stops in between the Pacific torch that is currently dominating our air mass.  Then winter gradually eases in with negative departures and the famous "storms and rumors of storms" for a 4-6 week period.

 

Of interest to me is that MDT recorded a Trace of snow on 12/30 so  the record of a completely snowless month fell by the wayside at almost the final hour.   This has not stopped pansies from deciding that Spring has Sprung and populating our flower bed this AM! Another interesting stat presented to me this morning, for Middletown again, is that it has not stayed below 30 for a daytime high since January 15th, 2018 so the airport is within 2 weeks of seeing it get to 30 or above every day for one consecutive year.

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, bubbler86 said:

I know some guys love to digest the progs every 6 or 12 hours and watch the ebb's and flows but I think the models are showing their normal issue with pattern changes and the regular progression of the "change of the seasons" as it were.   There can certainly be some argument made that our apparent weather is going to change from the past as the oceans continue to warm so strictly relying on my method of forecasting long range, which includes a dash of models and a pinch of common sense and seasonal history, can be dangerous.  However I still think January is going to end up being the flip of December in that by mid month we will be pushing double digit plus departures in the temp department with the only chance of real wintry precip being one of lucky timing of moisture being nearby when one of these transient cool periods stops in between the Pacific torch that is currently dominating our air mass.  Then winter gradually eases in with negative departures and the famous "storms and rumors of storms" for a 4-6 week period.

 

Of interest to me is that MDT recorded a Trace of snow on 12/30 so  the record of a completely snowless month fell by the wayside at almost the final hour.   This has not stopped pansies from deciding that Spring has Sprung and populating our flower bed this AM! Another interesting stat presented to me this morning, for Middletown again, is that it has not stayed below 30 for a daytime high since January 15th, 2018 so the airport is within 2 weeks of seeing it get to 30 or above every day for one consecutive year.

 

 

 

 

That's an amazing stat...somewhat misleading. (that's not really the right word) For example, back in November during the fall snowstorm I believe MDT was running 27 or 28 nearly the entire day. The high must have occurred near midnight either at the beginning or end of the day. Still, it's crazy! 

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Horst not backing down one bit from his warm/wet January call from weeks ago:

(2/2) But when will real winter weather return? Recent weeks have featured rumors of a sharp turn to cold conditions in early January. Personally, I don't see it--yet. While there may be some "brushes" with wintry weather...I believe February will be the colder/snowier month.

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1 minute ago, Itstrainingtime said:

That's an amazing stat...somewhat misleading. (that's not really the right word) For example, back in November during the fall snowstorm I believe MDT was running 27 or 28 nearly the entire day. The high must have occurred near midnight either at the beginning or end of the day. Still, it's crazy! 

Yea for stat purposes we all know our back yard therm's have stayed below 30 at least a few of those days but big picture the stat tells the same story for all...we have had no sustained arctic air masses for almost a year now.  I saw MDT hit 77 and  79 last February which is also crazy! 

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11 hours ago, psuhoffman said:

Thanks and happy New Years!!!  I should post up here more, but I guess since I lived in the DC area so long during the early years of the weather boards...once I moved back to northern MD I gravitated back there.  Also there is usually more activity down there in that forum (mostly because of the greater population in that area I would suspect) during non storm threat periods.  But I will try to pop in up here more often, I certainly enjoyed my time in this forum back in 2013-14. 

I have been calling for a flip to a colder pattern sometime mid to late January and I still feel confident in that.  A lot of the analogs that had somewhat similar features to this year...1958, 1966, 1969, 1978, 1987, 2005, 2007, 2015... featured a pretty craptastic mid Dec to mid Jan.  Then sometime between Jan 15 and early Feb they all flipped.  Some ended up epic, others simply respectable but they all got colder and snowier the second half. 

As for why its been so awful lately and when the flip comes I really do think the mjo has been in the drivers seat.  It makes too much sense.  Most of the time the obvious answer is the correct one.  The pattern really flipped on a dime when the mjo decided to go ape into the warm phases.  And looking at an mjo correlations map the actual pattern the last couple weeks, and the projected one next week, look so closely like the expected mjo phases that its too much to think it's a coincidence.   Add in that the mjo has been at near record amplitudes for the time of year and nino and its hard to ignore it as a driving influence. 

The soi being in nina territory is also not helping.  I think there is likely a connection between the soi and the mjo.  There is a correlation with the soi spiking during strong phases 3-6 and also a correlation with a muted mjo during el ninos.  I don't know which is the chicken or the egg there but there is some linkage.  There is also a correlation with the mjo into warm phases and the initiation of a SSWE so all that seems to be cascading to bring on this pattern and mute the nino background state.  The end result being the increased tropical convection in the east Indian Ocean and north of Australia is derailing and running interference with the formation of a nino pacific pattern or the atmospheric coupling with the sst patterns.  In essence we are in a strong la nina pacific firehose pattern despite the sst. 

However, I am not overly concerned yet for the rest of winter.  All of the seasonal and sub seasonal guidance (other then the cfs which I largely ignore) keeps trying to go to the exact same look.  The euro weeklies, euro seasonal, ukmet seasonal, JMA weeklies...all look the same.  But as the pattern approaches they back off and delay.  Tonight's weeklies again go to the great look but pushed it back a week again.  Why?  The most logical explanation is the mjo again.  The guidance is seeing the sst and other factors that indicate what the base state should be...and its the exact same look supported by the analogs I identified earlier and the sst pattern.  Take Joe D's Pioneer model.  I know wxbell is biased but that model is really just a sst analog output and it looks identical to the pattern the long range guidance keeps wanting to go to.  But analogs aren't perfect.  They don't take into account changing conditions and all factors, and the oceans SST arent the only pattern driver.  They are by far the most significant one but at times other things can influence the pattern one way or another.  

But we know the guidance struggles with the mjo at range.  So it seems highly likely given that when the mjo went berserk is when things went wrong, and the pattern keeps matching up with the mjo phases perfectly, that the long range guidance is simply failing to properly account for the current mjo and soi incongruousness with the nino sst.  So long as the soi and mjo remain in warm phases it is likely the pattern changes in the long range guidance is wrong.  BUT...there is historical evidence that a strong soi spike during a nino in December is typically followed by a crash in January.  It would also be almost unheard of for the mjo to spend an entire winter cycling through phases 3-6.  Sooner or later both of those factors are likely to flip.  At the very least the mjo is likely to become less amplified at some point and the soi is likely to drop, it might be now as today entered negative territory after a recent spike.  So I do think once those two things sort themselves out the good look being teased by the long range guidance is finally going to become a reality. 

Of course that still doesn't guaruntee a specific location a great result.  All of those years I listed above gave SOMEWHERE in the east a great second half snow wise.  But not everyone.  1987 targeted the DC to Philly area.  2007 nailed further north.  2005 was a new england special.  But every one of those years turned colder and somewhere got a snow blitz.  Discreet details within the pattern that are impossible to infer at range will determine the fate of a specific location in regards to snowfall.  Snowfall is incredibly fluky in general.  Its a relatively minor areal coverage that gets significant snow with any synoptic event.  When you are missing by 500 miles its a bad pattern.  When you are missing by 50 miles it's more often bad luck.  But get the pattern right and we all stand a chance...then its up to luck who ends up with a great finish and who simply had a respectable one. 

It's been crap lately, and the frustration is legit but I still am optimistic things flip within the next month and we have some good times ahead.  If I fail because of something unprecedented like an MJO wave that cycles around in warm phases all darn winter or an SOI that stays in nina territory all through a nino winter so be it, but I find that unlikely.  So far this hasn't been that out of line with the analogs and until I see evidence this has gone wrong I will have faith in the evidence I listed above for a pattern change coming relatively soon. 

Happy New Years and hopefully a snowy one. 

 

Thanks !

I look forward to your posts every day.

Your Weather knowledge, grasp of our regional weather history, posting style & sense of humor make your posts a very good read.

Please come back & post here when you get the chance!

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1 hour ago, pasnownut said:

Man it is just depressing outside.  Just looked at the overnights, and it looks like the models just had WAY too much to drink last evening and puked all over us. 

GEFS 500MB for next week.....if it's right....just dont look.  Sauss, you'll get to try out the new shorts you got for Christmas.

As usual, back edge of LR shows us getting better as the flow gets right w/ ridging/split flow out west and zonal in the east, but as the NH is largely void of bigtime cold, it will have some work to do to get things right.  In truth at 372 it looks much like what we thought was coming in the medium range, so proceed w/ caution if you wanna start buying the mid month flip.  IF MJO gets into 7 heads for 8 i'll start buying stock in it, as it has driven the meteo bus.  SOI is coming down and now neutral so that too could help to get things right.  I've been thinking the SSW would be factoring in to guidance and those i follow still thinks its happening, but it's voodo stuff to some and while it can really help to dislodge the cold, if it has, it isnt being shown on the guidance.

Delayed and hopefully not denied.  Havent gotten the snowmobiles ready yet....still looks like i have a week or 2.  BOO

I realize that we are suffering now from a lack of snow since our November 15th, 8.8 inch snow storm gift, but now is not the time to depressed.

MDT, thanks to the November storm, is still above normal snow to date. The normal seasonal total for MDT for this date according to CTP is 5.7 inches of snow. So, we are currently 3.1 inches above normal for this date. Many years, we are usually dealing with a snow deficit at this point. 

Sure, most of us would rather divided up the 8.8 inches into maybe 3 or 4 smaller snow events, but either way, we are ahead in the seasonal snow total game!

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40 minutes ago, bubbler86 said:

I know some guys love to digest the progs every 6 or 12 hours and watch the ebb's and flows but I think the models are showing their normal issue with pattern changes and the regular progression of the "change of the seasons" as it were.   There can certainly be some argument made that our apparent weather is going to change from the past as the oceans continue to warm so strictly relying on my method of forecasting long range, which includes a dash of models and a pinch of common sense and seasonal history, can be dangerous.  However I still think January is going to end up being the flip of December in that by mid month we will be pushing double digit plus departures in the temp department with the only chance of real wintry precip being one of lucky timing of moisture being nearby when one of these transient cool periods stops in between the Pacific torch that is currently dominating our air mass.  Then winter gradually eases in with negative departures and the famous "storms and rumors of storms" for a 4-6 week period.

 

Of interest to me is that MDT recorded a Trace of snow on 12/30 so  the record of a completely snowless month fell by the wayside at almost the final hour.   This has not stopped pansies from deciding that Spring has Sprung and populating our flower bed this AM! Another interesting stat presented to me this morning, for Middletown again, is that it has not stayed below 30 for a daytime high since January 15th, 2018 so the airport is within 2 weeks of seeing it get to 30 or above every day for one consecutive year.

 

 

 

 

As I stated earlier if the tellies progression to more fav looks continues, we could be out if the no winter blues and tracking by mid Jan which has lately been touted as the time when we should flip. My worry is the lack of cold to the north. If pattern flips it still may take a little time to get the real cold here. 

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3 minutes ago, Blizzard of 93 said:

I realize that we are suffering now from a lack of snow since our November 15th, 8.8 inch snow storm gift, but now is not the time to depressed.

MDT, thanks to the November storm, is still above normal snow to date. The normal seasonal total for MDT for this date according to CTP is 5.7 inches of snow. So, we are currently 3.1 inches above normal for this date. Many years, we are usually dealing with a snow deficit at this point. 

Sure, most of us would rather divided up the 8.8 inches into maybe 3 or 4 smaller snow events, but either way, we are ahead in the seasonal snow total game!

I agree with the stat but gotta say 1 big event doesn’t cut it for a true winter lover ) well me anyway).

I’d take those small events and have white ground for weeks on end and be happier than a lark. 

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33 minutes ago, Itstrainingtime said:

Horst not backing down one bit from his warm/wet January call from weeks ago:

(2/2) But when will real winter weather return? Recent weeks have featured rumors of a sharp turn to cold conditions in early January. Personally, I don't see it--yet. While there may be some "brushes" with wintry weather...I believe February will be the colder/snowier month.

We just need a little more patience for the good pattern to arrive.

The GEFS brings the better pattern to the east within 2 weeks. 

The Euro weeklies last night still brought the goods to us towards the 20th of January, & continued the look of a great pattern through the end the run in mid February.

The SOI now has been negative for the last 2 days.

The MJO is heading toward phase 7 & 8, which are great in the heart of winter.

Based on all of the above, plus the look of the seasonal models, plus the seasonal forecasts of many pro Mets & the opinions of some some great posters in the different forums on this website, I think we will have a great 6 to 8 week winter weather run beginning in the next few weeks.

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3 minutes ago, pasnownut said:

I agree with the stat but gotta say 1 big event doesn’t cut it for a true winter lover ) well me anyway).

I’d take those small events and have white ground for weeks on end and be happier than a lark. 

Yes on paper snow looks good, but If we go to January 15 without any measurable snow that  would be eight weeks with nothing.  The Pacific needs to change soon because if you ask me without that it is very hard to get anything decent around here.  It's not all about the Pacific,  but right now it is just garbage! 

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11 minutes ago, daxx said:

Yes on paper snow looks good, but If we go to January 15 without any measurable snow that  would be eight weeks with nothing.  The Pacific needs to change soon because if you ask me without that it is very hard to get anything decent around here.  It's not all about the Pacific,  but right now it is just garbage! 

Yeah man. PAC and mjo seem to control the weatherboard. 

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11 minutes ago, daxx said:

Yes on paper snow looks good, but If we go to January 15 without any measurable snow that  would be eight weeks with nothing.  The Pacific needs to change soon because if you ask me without that it is very hard to get anything decent around here.  It's not all about the Pacific,  but right now it is just garbage! 

The winter of 09–10 played our similarly. We had the big December storm in the 3rd week of the month & then basically had nothing until We got hit with the 2 historic storms in the 1st 10 ten days of February. We also got nothing in March of 2010.

The comparison would match up better if this year the November storm had hit instead in mid December. Also, what if this year, the great storm that crushed VA & NC had moved a little further north & even brought a moderate event to us ? We would be in great shape with seasonal snow totals if that storm had also hit us. What if this March continues to produce just like the last 2 years have done ? 

My point is, there is still plenty of time for this winter to go down as a good season !

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7 minutes ago, Blizzard of 93 said:

The winter of 09–10 played our similarly. We had the big December storm in the 3rd week of the month & then basically had nothing until We got hit with the 2 historic storms in the 1st 10 ten days of February. We also got nothing in March of 2010.

The comparison would match up better if this year the November storm had hit instead in mid December. Also, what if this year, the great storm that crushed VA & NC had moved a little further north & even brought a moderate event to us ? We would be in great shape with seasonal snow totals if that storm had also hit us. What if this March continues to produce just like the last 2 years have done ? 

My point is, there is still plenty of time for this winter to go down as a good season !

Yes...If things change Winter will be saved which I think it will, but If we keep saying be patient just wait another two weeks time will eventually run out.  We could sneak an event in or two.  Right now there is no way you can sugarcoat the pattern.  It is CRAP!

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39 minutes ago, daxx said:

Yes...If things change Winter will be saved which I think it will, but If we keep saying be patient just wait another two weeks time will eventually run out.  We could sneak an event in or two.  Right now there is no way you can sugarcoat the pattern.  It is CRAP!

Yes, it is currently bad, but if we turn it around by late January, there is absolutely plenty of time to make this a memorable winter. 

The vast majority of winters do not run the table with a good winter pattern from November to March. An average winter has it spurts of good & bad. Most of the great memorable winters, there were lengthy bad periods where many questioned if winter was over before the goods were delivered.

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3 minutes ago, Blizzard of 93 said:

Yes, it is currently bad, but if we turn it around by late January, there is absolutely plenty of time to make this a memorable winter. 

The vast majority of winters do not run the table with a good winter pattern from November to March. An average winter has it spurts of good & bad. Most of the great memorable winters, there were lengthy bad periods where many questioned if winter was over before the goods were delivered.

Yep...could not agree more. I just hate that word if.

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6 hours ago, canderson said:

Horst punting January is not encouraging. 

Horst punted January weeks ago and no one listened.

The fact that he is talking about a cold and snowy February IS encouraging. 

If I could be totally selfish I would wish for our winter weather now when sun angel is low and temps are near their lowest on average. 

In February 2010 I had a net 32" on the ground the morning of 2/10. I had grass showing 6 days later.

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27 minutes ago, Itstrainingtime said:

Horst punted January weeks ago and no one listened.

The fact that he is talking about a cold and snowy February IS encouraging. 

If I could be totally selfish I would wish for our winter weather now when sun angel is low and temps are near their lowest on average. 

In February 2010 I had a net 32" on the ground the morning of 2/10. I had grass showing 6 days later.

How is anyone punting January on the first day of the month?

Remember in 2016 when we didn’t get our first inch of snow until the middle of January, & then a week later we got the 30 inch historic Blizzard ? No one saw that coming at the beginning of January.

Many people said winter was over back in January of 2010 before we had that historic first 10 days of February.

I’m not singling out you & Horst with any of my comments. I just think that many people need to take a step back from the ledge. We have played this waiting game for snow many many times.

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19 minutes ago, Blizzard of 93 said:

How is anyone punting January on the first day of the month?

Remember in 2016 when we didn’t get our first inch of snow until the middle of January, & then a week later we got the 30 inch historic Blizzard ? No one saw that coming at the beginning of January.

Many people said winter was over back in January of 2010 before we had that historic first 10 days of February.

I’m not singling out you & Horst with any of my comments. I just think that many people need to take a step back from the ledge. We have played this waiting game for snow many many times.

I agree punting a whole month away is very bold.  In the end he might look great or he may look kind of silly. Time will tell.

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27 minutes ago, Blizzard of 93 said:

How is anyone punting January on the first day of the month?

Remember in 2016 when we didn’t get our first inch of snow until the middle of January, & then a week later we got the 30 inch historic Blizzard ? No one saw that coming at the beginning of January.

Many people said winter was over back in January of 2010 before we had that historic first 10 days of February.

I’m not singling out you & Horst with any of my comments. I just think that many people need to take a step back from the ledge. We have played this waiting game for snow many many times.

Bravo. With all of the chaos in LR as well as GFS vs Euro and patterns that go poof...we are entering a period telly wise that could have things sneak up in even within 7-10 day window. 

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First, I am not on any ledge or giving up or anything else. I just add what he says on here because quite frankly I don't know of anyone better at long range pattern recognition than Horst. He might not be right...I get it. He's not God. I do think that beyond his very high skill level it's prudent to consider his viewpoint as a possibility. Further, he is saying that of the next 2 months February looks far more wintery. He acknowledges that there will be "brushes" with cold and snow. 

One thing he said a couple of weeks ago is that he saw January having a 4 to 7 day stretch of wintery weather. That sure is looking mighty good right now. 

I'm sorry if I've been a thorn lately. I'm just not one to hang hope in something blindly. I'm going to step away for a good while and let you guys have fun without me and my "negative" posts.

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53 minutes ago, Blizzard of 93 said:

How is anyone punting January on the first day of the month?

Remember in 2016 when we didn’t get our first inch of snow until the middle of January, & then a week later we got the 30 inch historic Blizzard ? No one saw that coming at the beginning of January.

Many people said winter was over back in January of 2010 before we had that historic first 10 days of February.

I’m not singling out you & Horst with any of my comments. I just think that many people need to take a step back from the ledge. We have played this waiting game for snow many many times.

I concur wholeheartedly.    Horst is entitled to his opinion and if it turns out right then we can go back to Dec and say 'he had it right weeks ahead of time" but on Jan 1, any punts for January more than 7 days out are certainly not gospel.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Itstrainingtime said:

First, I am not on any ledge or giving up or anything else. I just add what he says on here because quite frankly I don't know of anyone better at long range pattern recognition than Horst. He might not be right...I get it. He's not God. I do think that beyond his very high skill level it's prudent to consider his viewpoint as a possibility. Further, he is saying that of the next 2 months February looks far more wintery. He acknowledges that there will be "brushes" with cold and snow. 

One thing he said a couple of weeks ago is that he saw January having a 4 to 7 day stretch of wintery weather. That sure is looking mighty good right now. 

I'm sorry if I've been a thorn lately. I'm just not one to hang hope in something blindly. I'm going to step away for a good while and let you guys have fun without me and my "negative" posts.

Not a thorn at all Mike!  Trust me there is plenty to be negative about.  He may be right and if he is I will definitely need a break.

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40 minutes ago, Itstrainingtime said:

First, I am not on any ledge or giving up or anything else. I just add what he says on here because quite frankly I don't know of anyone better at long range pattern recognition than Horst. He might not be right...I get it. He's not God. I do think that beyond his very high skill level it's prudent to consider his viewpoint as a possibility. Further, he is saying that of the next 2 months February looks far more wintery. He acknowledges that there will be "brushes" with cold and snow. 

One thing he said a couple of weeks ago is that he saw January having a 4 to 7 day stretch of wintery weather. That sure is looking mighty good right now. 

I'm sorry if I've been a thorn lately. I'm just not one to hang hope in something blindly. I'm going to step away for a good while and let you guys have fun without me and my "negative" posts.

I don’t take your posts as negative at all. 

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58 minutes ago, Itstrainingtime said:

First, I am not on any ledge or giving up or anything else. I just add what he says on here because quite frankly I don't know of anyone better at long range pattern recognition than Horst. He might not be right...I get it. He's not God. I do think that beyond his very high skill level it's prudent to consider his viewpoint as a possibility. Further, he is saying that of the next 2 months February looks far more wintery. He acknowledges that there will be "brushes" with cold and snow. 

One thing he said a couple of weeks ago is that he saw January having a 4 to 7 day stretch of wintery weather. That sure is looking mighty good right now. 

I'm sorry if I've been a thorn lately. I'm just not one to hang hope in something blindly. I'm going to step away for a good while and let you guys have fun without me and my "negative" posts.

I don’t think that you have been a negative thorn lately. Please don’t step away. I am happy that there has been good conversation in here the last few days. I have enjoyed your posts for years & look forward to many more in the near future ! 

I look forward to the excitement of tracking our next storm with you & the rest of our awesome crew in here! I have just been reminding everyone that we have been down this road before. 

At this point most of us would be fired up for a 2-4 inch snow advisory event. Let’s hope that it arrives sometime in the next week or two !

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8 hours ago, canderson said:

MDT finished 2018 with 67.03” rain, 6.7” below the 2011 record.

I'm out in California right now, and can't see my signature, but I recorded 73 and change as of December 26. According to the USGS gauge, we got a little over 2" since I've been gone, so I figure that I ended 2018 at close to 76 inches for the year. Provided that it doesn't rain or snow before I get home, I'll be able to get an exact figure.

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