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Summer Banter & General Discussion/Observations


CapturedNature

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Just now, ORH_wxman said:

It will eventually happen...but it will take a lot of convincing of the public to accept cougars in the northeast. One attack creates a lot more uproar and holds more weight in the public eyes than 10 people who didn't die in a deer collision on the highway.

 

I suspect they will first be reintroduced at some point in very rural places like the northern Adirondacks and/or perhaps the Allagash of Maine and then they will expand. We're still probably a decade or two away at minimum though in getting that to happen. Or they will just naturally make there way back east long after we are dead...prob over a hundred years down the road assuming we don't go crazy with the habitat destruction.

i think a little too "Liberal-like" about such matters?

i mean ...it's hard to not to be philosophical, and it goes back and forth in my mind: 

-- one instance I think ... humanity should adopt a moral/ethical imperative to restore whatever they do fumble around and f' up an environments to FUBAR statuses - particularly if they are singularly responsible for leaving a population to dust that was there for million years before they got there. not a hard moral leap, huh - cougar decimation certainly qualifies as candidate in my mind. 

-- then... i think, well wait:  aren't humans a part of this planet, and therefore (logically) they inextricably a part of the natural order of things? it's  human conceit that attempts to disconnect us as just as much a natural force as any other of the natural forces that are native to this world.  Hell, if we wanna go 'Gaia', we can even ask, how do we know the Earth didn't want Cougars taking away from this region? hmm - yeah.  Which sounds a lot like quackery of course  ...i'm just spit balling devil advocate stuff.  

the way i resolve that ...conundrum for lack of better word, is that i suggest that 'morality' its self is a natural force on Earth.  let's work this out logically for a moment:  humans are not unnatural to this planet (though some seem to operate in an oblivion as though we dropped on by as entitled ransackers ha... ), so whatever we do, must unfortunatley for liberals, be considered the Earth doing it to its self.  that's just Math.  argue all you want - you're wrong.  now, if we go to mars and f' that world up, that is not mars doing it to its self; ..that is true intrusion ... 'alien' as it were. see where i'm going?  

in a way ... humans were endowed with intelligence (though only apparently used selectively...), so vast compared to other species that we have atomic physics, space travel, DNA research, and ... 10 th order mathematical tensors and Van Gough ...blah blah.  but, that comes with tremendous and unfortunately proven to be so, destructive powers. perhaps "morality" was invented along the way to help rein in those forces of destruction?

I like that... it atones ...well "can" should choose, for a lot - provide the morality is actually in play... that's sort of where i lean on conservation-related related matters. the morality of having decimated a species that could have been a natural control for those deer (as you were saying..) is pretty clear - 

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METAR KBPT 301153Z AUTO 28020G33KT 6SM RA BR OVC010 21/21 A2948 RMK AO2 PK WND
                 29033/1153 SLP981 P0015 60132 72233 T02110211 10211 20200 53012 $ =

For those who are METAR savvy....this is pretty damn rare. First time I can recall seeing a "2" in this slot. (7 indicates 24-hr precip and the next 4 digits are the amount in hundredths (22.33"))

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Finally some sub-freezing air at 850mb coming in...but no lingering moisture.

.SHORT TERM /THURSDAY NIGHT THROUGH FRIDAY/...
As of 422 AM EDT Wednesday...Low-level CAA will prevail across
the North Country on Thursday night as sfc cold front translates
offshore south of New England. 850mb thermal trough makes it
into the region after midnight, with 00Z GFS indicating -2C at
850mb at BTV by 09Z/Friday. By that point, low-level moisture is
quite shallow, with just some residual clouds trapped below the
frontal inversion between 4-6KFT. Can`t rule out some light
rime icing across the higher summits, but any lingering
precipitation 00-03Z time frame would fall as light rain showers
or sprinkles in somewhat warmer vertical temperature profiles.
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1 hour ago, Typhoon Tip said:

i think a little too "Liberal-like" about such matters?

i mean ...it's hard to not to be philosophical, and it goes back and forth in my mind: 

-- one instance I think ... humanity should adopt a moral/ethical imperative to restore whatever they do fumble around and f' up an environments to FUBAR statuses - particularly if they are singularly responsible for leaving a population to dust that was there for million years before they got there. not a hard moral leap, huh - cougar decimation certainly qualifies as candidate in my mind. 

-- then... i think, well wait:  aren't humans a part of this planet, and therefore (logically) they inextricably a part of the natural order of things? it's  human conceit that attempts to disconnect us as just as much a natural force as any other of the natural forces that are native to this world.  Hell, if we wanna go 'Gaia', we can even ask, how do we know the Earth didn't want Cougars taking away from this region? hmm - yeah.  Which sounds a lot like quackery of course  ...i'm just spit balling devil advocate stuff.  

the way i resolve that ...conundrum for lack of better word, is that i suggest that 'morality' its self is a natural force on Earth.  let's work this out logically for a moment:  humans are not unnatural to this planet (though some seem to operate in an oblivion as though we dropped on by as entitled ransackers ha... ), so whatever we do, must unfortunatley for liberals, be considered the Earth doing it to its self.  that's just Math.  argue all you want - you're wrong.  now, if we go to mars and f' that world up, that is not mars doing it to its self; ..that is true intrusion ... 'alien' as it were. see where i'm going?  

in a way ... humans were endowed with intelligence (though only apparently used selectively...), so vast compared to other species that we have atomic physics, space travel, DNA research, and ... 10 th order mathematical tensors and Van Gough ...blah blah.  but, that comes with tremendous and unfortunately proven to be so, destructive powers. perhaps "morality" was invented along the way to help rein in those forces of destruction?

I like that... it atones ...well "can" should choose, for a lot - provide the morality is actually in play... that's sort of where i lean on conservation-related related matters. the morality of having decimated a species that could have been a natural control for those deer (as you were saying..) is pretty clear - 

 

 

Haha...yeah it sounds kind of "tree huggerish" to propose a project reintroducing cougars to the northeast. But as you even acknowledged in the bottom of the post, the benefits outweigh the negatives. It would def be controversial, but it really shouldn't be. Cougars generally avoid humans so attacks are rare (even out west where they live close to large population centers) and they would help put a stabilizing factor on the big deer population that is far more deadly than any threat from cougars.

 

We just have an innate resistance to apex predators...for obvious reasons. We used to get eaten by large cats back on the African savannah when we were evolving into homo sapiens. So it is an admittedly large bridge to cross to get over that public fear of such things. I've always been obsessed with big predators...so I've been lucky to educate myself on them. I'd probably be a lot more terrified of a bull moose in the rutting season than a cougar in the wild. The cougar would almost certainly be scared and take off running in a chance encounter....a bull moose? Well lets just say I'm probably going to be scrambling up a tree to avoid being impaled on a set of antlers. Grizzly bear? Now there's a predator that I'd be a lot more scared of...they have a history of confronting humans in a frontal attack.

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24 minutes ago, Baroclinic Zone said:

1st day of school today.  Scary to think I have a 9th grader.  Where does the time go?

It goes.  Seems like not too long ago I was fascinatingly watching the 3/19/56 event morph into a full blown blizzard.  It was 61 years ago.

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6 minutes ago, Ginx snewx said:

most years my grandkids come over on weekends until mid September and sometimes after school on hot days. 

I equate it to the shorts season for me.  I wear shorts when not working until later in September typically though I often put them in during October warm spells.  Even yesterday after work I reverted to jeans.

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1 hour ago, ORH_wxman said:

 

Haha...yeah it sounds kind of "tree huggerish" to propose a project reintroducing cougars to the northeast. But as you even acknowledged in the bottom of the post, the benefits outweigh the negatives. It would def be controversial, but it really shouldn't be. Cougars generally avoid humans so attacks are rare (even out west where they live close to large population centers) and they would help put a stabilizing factor on the big deer population that is far more deadly than any threat from cougars.

We just have an innate resistance to apex predators...for obvious reasons. We used to get eaten by large cats back on the African savannah when we were evolving into homo sapiens. So it is an admittedly large bridge to cross to get over that public fear of such things. I've always been obsessed with big predators...so I've been lucky to educate myself on them. I'd probably be a lot more terrified of a bull moose in the rutting season than a cougar in the wild. The cougar would almost certainly be scared and take off running in a chance encounter....a bull moose? Well lets just say I'm probably going to be scrambling up a tree to avoid being impaled on a set of antlers. Grizzly bear? Now there's a predator that I'd be a lot more scared of...they have a history of confronting humans in a frontal attack.

Big cats have always fascinated me - I literally have spent afternoons reading about patterns of behavior among difference species branches, to natural habitats, and migration patterns over millions of years.  I love big cat week on the nature channels - though they've gotten a bit top heavy with Lions.. I think of all cats Leopards most fascinate, followed by the fringe ones like the Siberian Tiger, or the snow leopards of the Himalayan Steppes and plateau - 

I know what you mean.  They are the sharks of the land, honed through trial and error over a million years of Darwinian selection to be these perfectly adapted ...and ecologically necessary killers..  

Case in point, the deer. In fact, I wonder if the deer population is related to the loss of the total predatory envelope - there used to be wolves too, right?  Plus, don't their numbers pose indirect threats from tick borne pathogens too - aren't they intermediary hosts and crap?  That, and the fact that they plow through windshields at 70 mph because they are, in effect, the biggest, dumbest animals relative to body size in N/A.  I swear they belong on a plate...  Moose?  Man...they are known to Canadian bush folk as far an a way the most dangerous animal in North America during that swollen balls season...  

 

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43 minutes ago, Damage In Tolland said:

Well in CT 99.9% of kids are not home schooled lol. We don't live in the Alaskan bush

I know you have a very hard time understanding alternative life styles so some facts. CT is among the top ten states for rapidly growing numbers of families homeschooling. there are over 2.5 million kids home schooled nationwide. CT has 2.75% of its kids home schooled. We get lots of home schooled kids visiting here. They tend to be better behaved and more inquisitive. I love the fact most are learning through experience as well as classroom. 

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19 minutes ago, weathafella said:

It goes.  Seems like not too long ago I was fascinatingly watching the 3/19/56 event morph into a full blown blizzard.  It was 61 years ago.

Which one is your favorite? March '56 or December 1960?

 

Those are the two you always describe the most in Tip-esque passionate detail. The '56 storm IIRC is the one where you were in school when it started and the Dec '60 storm was when you were first watching the Redskins/Giants game on TV in a blizzard while it was very light in NJ...and it gave you a sense of what was to come later that evening.

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6 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

Which one is your favorite? March '56 or December 1960?

 

Those are the two you always describe the most in Tip-esque passionate detail. The '56 storm IIRC is the one where you were in school when it started and the Dec '60 storm was when you were first watching the Redskins/Giants game on TV in a blizzard while it was very light in NJ...and it gave you a sense of what was to come later that evening.

I think the nod may go to 1956 because I was 9 years old and forecasts were for 1-2 inches as the event started.   The piles and drifts were legendary-tamarack will tell you.

1960 had a good 24 hour lead time forecast so that was good and of course seeing YA Tittle hit Shofner with a Corner pattern for a TD as Del fell into a pile of snow was epic. 

Its close though.  1960-61 was so amazing!

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2 minutes ago, weathafella said:

I think the nod may go to 1956 because I was 9 years old and forecasts were for 1-2 inches as the event started.   The piles and drifts were legendary-tamarack will tell you.

1960 had a good 24 hour lead time forecast so that was good and of course seeing YA Tittle hit Shofner with a Corner pattern for a TD as Del fell into a pile of snow was epic. 

Its close though.  1960-61 was so amazing!

Yeah the positive busts are always a big enhancer for favorite storm....

One reason that December 1992 wins for me. Went from a 2-4" forecast 24 hours out to almost 3 feet...April '97 was epic too and a positive bust, but not as much as '92 was. We were still forecasted to get 12-16" in '97...even though we got 33", it was still less of a bust than '92.

 

1992 had the weird multi-layered transition too...Tip often talks about it from his own viewpoint in Lowell. The heavy rain to pasty wet snow, to a more powdery snow in a pretty short transition period. We had a longer period of wet snow in the interior elevations actually because before the lower levels cooled rapidly with a more NE/NNE wind, we were racking up 31F paste for hours on an ENE wind while areas like Lowell were still 38F and heavy rain with the occasional catpaw.

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2 minutes ago, ORH_wxman said:

Yeah the positive busts are always a big enhancer for favorite storm....

One reason that December 1992 wins for me. Went from a 2-4" forecast 24 hours out to almost 3 feet...April '97 was epic too and a positive bust, but not as much as '92 was. We were still forecasted to get 12-16" in '97...even though we got 33", it was still less of a bust than '92.

 

1992 had the weird multi-layered transition too...Tip often talks about it from his own viewpoint in Lowell. The heavy rain to pasty wet snow, to a more powdery snow in a pretty short transition period. We had a longer period of wet snow in the interior elevations actually because before the lower levels cooled rapidly with a more NE/NNE wind, we were racking up 31F paste for hours on an ENE wind while areas like Lowell were still 38F and heavy rain with the occasional catpaw.

And you being so young in 1992 made it that much sweeter.  That's a big part.  We're all so jaded now.  

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19 minutes ago, weathafella said:

And you being so young in 1992 made it that much sweeter.  That's a big part.  We're all so jaded now.  

Yeah that always adds an element of mystic to it. I was a kid, and it was also my first real huge snowstorm...we were coming out of a horrendous decade with no true monster storms (a few pretty big ones, but nothing crazy...and I was too young to remember April '82 or Feb '83...and missed the April '87 event living in Texas)....and December 1992 seemed to break the hex...it opened the floodgates for huge storms and some great winters after that...March '93 on its heels and then of course, the epic "winters of lore" type pattern in January/Feb 1994 kicked off by a brief but intense storm right before New Years. That definitely adds to the young weenie's perception.

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1992, December is in my top three.  

Believe it or not, April Fool's 1997 is only in my top 10, but ... to be fair, I was personally outside that hyper CCB band that was like some kind of a military foam encasement jet - I mean..I saw a METAR tabulation of something like ..9 straight hours with OCC LIGHTNING IC AQ in S+ ...Logon maybe?  I dunno but folks reported window sill buzzing thunder din all night in that.  I think up in Merrimack Valley we ended up with 12 to 15" somewhere, which is obviously impressive particularly for that late in the year. 

The 1997 storm that comes in at number 5 on my list was the incredible 18" that fell out here in Middlesex Co off a 2-5" slush, turn to rain 'cast that fell on the 23rd of December. It was not only wrong, it was wrong with panache! I mean .. there's something especially bad about a forecast for 3" of slush that ends up 18" of powder that really deserves a special asterisk (or two) in the annulled list of bonehead calls. Perhaps the 'change to rain' part really puts that over the edge. Wow.  I think I even remember a TV met somewhere saying, '" really more of nuisance" with an assured sort of refrain.  There was 0 slush from that, period. It was small uniform aggregates falling so dense you couldn't get to the end of your driveway without a cataract surgeon.  That was first time I ever measured 7.5" fall in a single hour from synoptic snow.  I had seen 4 or 5 inches on several occasions in LE bands when I was child in western Michigan... But to stand out there in snow falling so hard, that there was zero sound ...at 24F when the forecast was light nuisance snow going light cold rain at 35 really needs to have it's place up there in the very best of the best.

But 1992 was ... I yeah ...that's a story - 

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3 hours ago, ORH_wxman said:

It will eventually happen...but it will take a lot of convincing of the public to accept cougars in the northeast. One attack creates a lot more uproar and holds more weight in the public eyes than 10 people who didn't die in a deer collision on the highway.

 

I suspect they will first be reintroduced at some point in very rural places like the northern Adirondacks and/or perhaps the Allagash of Maine and then they will expand. We're still probably a decade or two away at minimum though in getting that to happen. Or they will just naturally make there way back east long after we are dead...prob over a hundred years down the road assuming we don't go crazy with the habitat destruction.

There have been rumbles concerning wolf reintroduction, mainly 10-15 years ago, less so recently.  I've never heard a whisper concerning reintroduction of cougars.  They would have a tough time in today's Allagash-St. John region, with deer pops down to 1-2 per square mile.  (In 1990 the registered deer kill in the northerly 1/4 of Maine was something like 2,872.  19 years later it was only 350, and things have not changed much since then.  Guides there have almost fully given up on deer, and make their money guiding hunts for moose and, especially, for bear.)  Maine's higher deer numbers are mostly south of Route 2 and west of Penobscot Bay.  I'm not sure if cougars would adapt to that many people, and even less sure the people there would adapt to cougars, especially when pets and livestock began to disappear (or worse things happening.) 

I think the nod may go to 1956 because I was 9 years old and forecasts were for 1-2 inches as the event started.   The piles and drifts were legendary-tamarack will tell you.

1960 had a good 24 hour lead time forecast so that was good and of course seeing YA Tittle hit Shofner with a Corner pattern for a TD as Del fell into a pile of snow was epic. 

Its close though.  1960-61 was so amazing!

Tough choice.  Dec 1960's 18" of low-teens powder gave me an extra 2 days in the NJ deer season, though without success.  I did learn how to field dress an animal on my dad's 5-pointer shortly after the snow had stopped that Monday opening day.  And somewhere I read that the Giants-'Skins game featured the least passing yards of any NFL game dating back to WW2 or some such.  The March 1956 event is the first big snowstorm in my memory - was only 21 months old for 12/26/47.  It was snowing hard with 2-3" new as I went to bed, and I dreamed that it had changed to rain and all melted.  Finding 24" in the front yard the next morning was wonderful - I don't think we'd had even a 10" storm that far into the 1950s.

Then 60-61 had the two big storms (Jan 19-20 and Feb 3-4) connected by NYC's longest stretch of subfreezing maxima, producing snow depths in NNJ 12-18" above anything else on record there, peaking with the 52" at Canistear Reservoir, 12 miles NW of home.  (Had somewhere in the 42-45 range at our place.  Only significant pow-on-pow events in my NNJ experience.)

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18 minutes ago, Typhoon Tip said:

1992, December is in my top three.  

Believe it or not, April Fool's 1997 is only in my top 10, but ... to be fair, I was personally outside that hyper CCB band that was like some kind of a military foam encasement jet - I mean..I saw a METAR tabulation of something like ..9 straight hours with OCC LIGHTNING IC AQ in S+ ...Logon maybe?  I dunno but folks reported window sill buzzing thunder din all night in that.  I think up in Merrimack Valley we ended up with 12 to 15" somewhere, which is obviously impressive particularly for that late in the year. 

The 1997 storm that comes in at number 5 on my list was the incredible 18" that fell out here in Middlesex Co off a 2-5" slush, turn to rain 'cast that fell on the 23rd of December. It was not only wrong, it was wrong with panache! I mean .. there's something especially bad about a forecast for 3" of slush that ends up 18" of powder that really deserves a special asterisk (or two) in the annulled list of bonehead calls. Perhaps the 'change to rain' part really puts that over the edge. Wow.  I think I even remember a TV met somewhere saying, '" really more of nuisance" with an assured sort of refrain.  There was 0 slush from that, period. It was small uniform aggregates falling so dense you couldn't get to the end of your driveway without a cataract surgeon.  That was first time I ever measured 7.5" fall in a single hour from synoptic snow.  I had seen 4 or 5 inches on several occasions in LE bands when I was child in western Michigan... But to stand out there in snow falling so hard, that there was zero sound ...at 24F when the forecast was light nuisance snow going light cold rain at 35 really needs to have it's place up there in the very best of the best.

But 1992 was ... I yeah ...that's a story - 

Dec '97 is also in my top 5...what an event. I remember the meteorologists emphasizing how weak it was more than the marginal temps (though they did mention both)...they were thinking even out in ORH where it would probably be mostly snow...1-3" or maybe as much as 3-5" in one of the late night broadcasts.

I had 6.5" per hour in that one...not quite the max that just northeast of me had along 495 (Ayer-ASH belt) where someone reported 8" per hour and you yourself recall 7.5" in an hour. What was always interesting about that storm to me was the size of the aggregates even though the temps were like 26F...there must have been a marginal warm layer aloft that caused the aggregates to start sticking together in conjunction with the epic UVVs/omega. I do recall there being rain/sleet to our south in that one over most of CT.

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26 minutes ago, tamarack said:

There have been rumbles concerning wolf reintroduction, mainly 10-15 years ago, less so recently.  I've never heard a whisper concerning reintroduction of cougars.  They would have a tough time in today's Allagash-St. John region, with deer pops down to 1-2 per square mile.  (In 1990 the registered deer kill in the northerly 1/4 of Maine was something like 2,872.  19 years later it was only 350, and things have not changed much since then.  Guides there have almost fully given up on deer, and make their money guiding hunts for moose and, especially, for bear.)  Maine's higher deer numbers are mostly south of Route 2 and west of Penobscot Bay.  I'm not sure if cougars would adapt to that many people, and even less sure the people there would adapt to cougars, especially when pets and livestock began to disappear (or worse things happening.) 

I think the nod may go to 1956 because I was 9 years old and forecasts were for 1-2 inches as the event started.   The piles and drifts were legendary-tamarack will tell you.

1960 had a good 24 hour lead time forecast so that was good and of course seeing YA Tittle hit Shofner with a Corner pattern for a TD as Del fell into a pile of snow was epic. 

Its close though.  1960-61 was so amazing!

Tough choice.  Dec 1960's 18" of low-teens powder gave me an extra 2 days in the NJ deer season, though without success.  I did learn how to field dress an animal on my dad's 5-pointer shortly after the snow had stopped that Monday opening day.  And somewhere I read that the Giants-'Skins game featured the least passing yards of any NFL game dating back to WW2 or some such.  The March 1956 event is the first big snowstorm in my memory - was only 21 months old for 12/26/47.  It was snowing hard with 2-3" new as I went to bed, and I dreamed that it had changed to rain and all melted.  Finding 24" in the front yard the next morning was wonderful - I don't think we'd had even a 10" storm that far into the 1950s.

Then 60-61 had the two big storms (Jan 19-20 and Feb 3-4) connected by NYC's longest stretch of subfreezing maxima, producing snow depths in NNJ 12-18" above anything else on record there, peaking with the 52" at Canistear Reservoir, 12 miles NW of home.  (Had somewhere in the 42-45 range at our place.  Only significant pow-on-pow events in my NNJ experience.)

Interesting tidbit about the deer in the Allagash...that would definitely be in contrast to the populations over a good chunk of the rest of the northeast including a lot of NY State. I wonder why the numbers have not exploded over western Maine versus other areas.

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4 hours ago, weathafella said:

Not exactly a high population of kids..lol.

I read your response to mean many do not have kids and keep the pools open as long as wx is swimmable.

 

3 hours ago, Damage In Tolland said:

Well in CT 99.9% of kids are not home schooled lol. We don't live in the Alaskan bush

There's more homeschooled kids than you'd think and you don't have to live in the Alaskan bush to do it.  We homeschool and know numerous families that do as well.  It's a growing option for many parents and more people choose it every year. 

The point is that you said every kid and not every kid is going away to a school.  "Every" means 100% and that is not a factual statement.

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18 hours ago, snowman21 said:

It was hit and killed by a car on the parkway. I believe they did DNA tests on it to confirm, and that's how they knew it had walked all the way from SD. Not sure how DNA proves that last part; maybe there is some mountain lion DNA database out there tracking all these things that are roaming around.

Yup. I know about this one. So many people in southern NE say they see mountain lions.  No dead ones, bones, etc.   there was one recently where hair was left that was being evaluated for DNA

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3 hours ago, Ginx snewx said:

I know you have a very hard time understanding alternative life styles so some facts. CT is among the top ten states for rapidly growing numbers of families homeschooling. there are over 2.5 million kids home schooled nationwide. CT has 2.75% of its kids home schooled. We get lots of home schooled kids visiting here. They tend to be better behaved and more inquisitive. I love the fact most are learning through experience as well as classroom. 

 My town has a very high percentage of home schoolers.  

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4 hours ago, Ginx snewx said:

I know you have a very hard time understanding alternative life styles so some facts. CT is among the top ten states for rapidly growing numbers of families homeschooling. there are over 2.5 million kids home schooled nationwide. CT has 2.75% of its kids home schooled. We get lots of home schooled kids visiting here. They tend to be better behaved and more inquisitive. I love the fact most are learning through experience as well as classroom. 

2.5% :lol: 

That means 97.5% go to school and realize the importance of social interaction 

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