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Spring Banter & General Discussion/Observations

CapturedNature

By CapturedNature,
in New England

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mayjawintastawm

mayjawintastawm

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, tamarack said:

Natural tree line in the NC/TN Apps must be over 7,000' - the balds in those mts are the results of fires (and in some places, from clearcutting the old growth red spruce.)  By the time one gets to Baxter Park, tree line is down closer to 3,500'; there are some trees above that, but mostly krummholz.  On a years-ago thread, we discussed the latitude-elevation "exchange" and IIRC a ratio of about 600' per degree of latitude was where we ended up.  (Seems too low for tree line - Katahdin is about 10 degrees north of the 6,000-footers in the Apps, and I'm not ready to buy into the natural tree line at 35N being over 9,000'.)

A forester friend from Maine I used to hike with before I moved west told me it's all about mean annual temps, with 40-42 F being treeline. Here in CO treeline is about 11400 ft at 39-40 degrees N, and in CA near Tahoe at about 40-41 degrees N treeline is 9600 ft. Will be interesting to see where things go in another 50 years.

Mt Mitchell's summit "feels" like around 4000-4500 ft in the Whites, so I agree with the 7000 ft or slightly higher theoretical treeline in NC/TN.

 

EDIT: Of course I had to hit "post" on this somewhat pedantic topic about 10 seconds after all the gorgeous Paris pictures... jeesh.

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CapturedNature

CapturedNature

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48 minutes ago, tamarack said:

Natural tree line in the NC/TN Apps must be over 7,000' - the balds in those mts are the results of fires (and in some places, from clearcutting the old growth red spruce.)  By the time one gets to Baxter Park, tree line is down closer to 3,500'; there are some trees above that, but mostly krummholz.  On a years-ago thread, we discussed the latitude-elevation "exchange" and IIRC a ratio of about 600' per degree of latitude was where we ended up.  (Seems too low for tree line - Katahdin is about 10 degrees north of the 6,000-footers in the Apps, and I'm not ready to buy into the natural tree line at 35N being over 9,000'.)

I think I remember the discussion about the "exchange".  I think it has to vary by longitude as well because Logan Pass at around 6,000' in Glacier NP near 49°N is still not above treeline.  Paradise in Mt Rainier NP is similar as well.  It just seemed to dip down in our corner of the world.  I recall seeing it closer to 2,000' 51°N in Quebec when I travelled to Labrador about 20 years ago.

Overall its a fascinating transition and seeing it this time of year.  We were travelling from lush green areas to baron ones and then back again.  Even today I noticed that there is much more leafing activity in the valley than there is in my neck of the woods.  I really notice the 2-3 week lag/lead time that the hills have over the valley.  I'm sure it's even more pronounced up there with your bigger mountains.

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tamarack

tamarack

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37 minutes ago, mayjawintastawm said:

A forester friend from Maine I used to hike with before I moved west told me it's all about mean annual temps, with 40-42 F being treeline. Here in CO treeline is about 11400 ft at 39-40 degrees N, and in CA near Tahoe at about 40-41 degrees N treeline is 9600 ft. Will be interesting to see where things go in another 50 years.

Mt Mitchell's summit "feels" like around 4000-4500 ft in the Whites, so I agree with the 7000 ft or slightly higher theoretical treeline in NC/TN.

40-42 seems too warm for the Northeast, where there's somewhat regular precipitation thru all 12 months, or at least moreso than in the Rockies/Sierras.   CAR's long term average temp is between 39 and 40, and farther north at Fort Kent it's closer to 37.  Both locations are in the 500-600' range, and the land west of Fort Kent (especially west of Allagash) is 500-1,000' higher, colder, and all forest.  Even on Gaspe at 49N the forest extends to above 2,500'.

Overall its a fascinating transition and seeing it this time of year.  We were travelling from lush green areas to baron ones and then back again.  Even today I noticed that there is much more leafing activity in the valley than there is in my neck of the woods.  I really notice the 2-3 week lag/lead time that the hills have over the valley.  I'm sure it's even more pronounced up there with your bigger mountains.

Reminds me of a mid-spring trip we took to SC 15-20 years ago.  The woods were just starting to green up when we left the foothills, but leaves were about half-formed where we drove thru SNY on I-84.  The coal country south of Wilkes-Barre gave back some of the green-up, thanks to both elevation and thin (and occasionally mining-ruined) soils.  The 1,000-ft+ descent on I-81 about half an hour NE of Harrisburg brought us to late spring, nearly full leaf-out but still light green.  In western VA the interstate held serve as we climbed above 2,000 ft while the Blue Ridge at 4,000 wasn't much further along than at home.  However, the 2nd 1,000+ descent, on I-77 just north of the VA/NC border, brought us into full hazy-skies summer.  A few days later we got to do it in reverse.

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powderfreak

powderfreak

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2 hours ago, tamarack said:

40-42 seems too warm for the Northeast, where there's somewhat regular precipitation thru all 12 months, or at least moreso than in the Rockies/Sierras.   CAR's long term average temp is between 39 and 40, and farther north at Fort Kent it's closer to 37.  Both locations are in the 500-600' range, and the land west of Fort Kent (especially west of Allagash) is 500-1,000' higher, colder, and all forest.  Even on Gaspe at 49N the forest extends to above 2,500'.

Overall its a fascinating transition and seeing it this time of year.  We were travelling from lush green areas to baron ones and then back again.  Even today I noticed that there is much more leafing activity in the valley than there is in my neck of the woods.  I really notice the 2-3 week lag/lead time that the hills have over the valley.  I'm sure it's even more pronounced up there with your bigger mountains.

Reminds me of a mid-spring trip we took to SC 15-20 years ago.  The woods were just starting to green up when we left the foothills, but leaves were about half-formed where we drove thru SNY on I-84.  The coal country south of Wilkes-Barre gave back some of the green-up, thanks to both elevation and thin (and occasionally mining-ruined) soils.  The 1,000-ft+ descent on I-81 about half an hour NE of Harrisburg brought us to late spring, nearly full leaf-out but still light green.  In western VA the interstate held serve as we climbed above 2,000 ft while the Blue Ridge at 4,000 wasn't much further along than at home.  However, the 2nd 1,000+ descent, on I-77 just north of the VA/NC border, brought us into full hazy-skies summer.  A few days later we got to do it in reverse.

Agreed with you on those temps being probably too high.

Mansfield COOP at 3,950ft is right at the treeline with krumholtz though you have to go down quite a bit to find hardwoods.

Mansfield long term annual average temperature is ~34/35F, can't remember exact decimal but I had looked this up recently on NOWdata.

So you're finding treeline at an area that seems an average annual temperature just a couple to few degrees above freezing.  

I always thought Wind would have something to do with it.  Wind isn't something that seems to increase gradually with height for whatever reason.  Once you hit a certain elevation in New England it just seems to be very windy all the time.  It's right around that treeline level.  Stripping soils and making it very difficult to survive as vegetation.  It just seems like there's an elevation that you reach that is always above the nocturnal inversions and even is seemingly always windy.  

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mreaves

mreaves

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4 hours ago, tamarack said:

40-42 seems too warm for the Northeast, where there's somewhat regular precipitation thru all 12 months, or at least moreso than in the Rockies/Sierras.   CAR's long term average temp is between 39 and 40, and farther north at Fort Kent it's closer to 37.  Both locations are in the 500-600' range, and the land west of Fort Kent (especially west of Allagash) is 500-1,000' higher, colder, and all forest.  Even on Gaspe at 49N the forest extends to above 2,500'.

Overall its a fascinating transition and seeing it this time of year.  We were travelling from lush green areas to baron ones and then back again.  Even today I noticed that there is much more leafing activity in the valley than there is in my neck of the woods.  I really notice the 2-3 week lag/lead time that the hills have over the valley.  I'm sure it's even more pronounced up there with your bigger mountains.

Reminds me of a mid-spring trip we took to SC 15-20 years ago.  The woods were just starting to green up when we left the foothills, but leaves were about half-formed where we drove thru SNY on I-84.  The coal country south of Wilkes-Barre gave back some of the green-up, thanks to both elevation and thin (and occasionally mining-ruined) soils.  The 1,000-ft+ descent on I-81 about half an hour NE of Harrisburg brought us to late spring, nearly full leaf-out but still light green.  In western VA the interstate held serve as we climbed above 2,000 ft while the Blue Ridge at 4,000 wasn't much further along than at home.  However, the 2nd 1,000+ descent, on I-77 just north of the VA/NC border, brought us into full hazy-skies summer.  A few days later we got to do it in reverse.

That's a nice description of a trip I've made many times in all seasons. It never fails to fascinate men 

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Typhoon Tip

Typhoon Tip

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Can you imagine if it ever took 2.5 days to move a deep layer tropospheric vortex from the Del Marva to SE of Cape Cod in early February?  

I don't think I've ever seen that..  We've had similar circumstances.  The 'Hundred Hour' storm was a weak to midland cut off that got trapped below a west-based NAO block and rattled around just off the Maine coast. I don't know if that overall evolution back whence is the same sort of thing/comparable to this personally assaulting predicament we see here.

That's tongue-in-cheek...

Not sure though - maybe more of a philosophical question than a physical one.

This? It is circumstantially really just singling out the lowest 300 mb of the atmosphere, with panache, engineered for a cold/raw time of it... The 850 mb temperatures amid the arena of this whirl are not even that appreciably cold; and in fact, are normal relative to climatology for that level. The circumvalla region all around it is moated off with positive anomalies, too, to really rub the overall circumstance in as deeply and physically painfully as could capably be measured (anything worst has no effective meaning to hell, so it can't be -).  Yet, the surface couldn't be any more annoying in any corporeality sense of it without just flipping over to snow ... at which point we re-enter gaiety and awe from an entirely different perspective.  But that's never here nor there.  Pure evil.

Seriously... I think this sort of thing is more endemic to spring. At least per my experience. These slow moving and or stalled west Atlantic/EC mid level vortexes have plagued about ..oh, perhaps 25 maybe 33% of all years since I've moved to New England and became more promptly aware of the climate 'round deez part.  

It makes sense. In the winter, the flow is intrinsically faster because of the increased baroclinic gradient overall. So systems tend to be forced along.  

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tamarack

tamarack

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16 hours ago, powderfreak said:

Agreed with you on those temps being probably too high.

Mansfield COOP at 3,950ft is right at the treeline with krumholtz though you have to go down quite a bit to find hardwoods.

Mansfield long term annual average temperature is ~34/35F, can't remember exact decimal but I had looked this up recently on NOWdata.

So you're finding treeline at an area that seems an average annual temperature just a couple to few degrees above freezing.  

I always thought Wind would have something to do with it.  Wind isn't something that seems to increase gradually with height for whatever reason.  Once you hit a certain elevation in New England it just seems to be very windy all the time.  It's right around that treeline level.  Stripping soils and making it very difficult to survive as vegetation.  It just seems like there's an elevation that you reach that is always above the nocturnal inversions and even is seemingly always windy.  

Rocky Mountain, about 10 miles NW of Allagash village, rises to 2,000', and I'd guess its average temp isn't far off from that of Mansfield co-op; nearly 2,000' lower but 2.7° more latitude.  It's got 60' tall spruce where there are pockets of halfway decent soil, meaning more than duff over ledge.  (To me, trees limited to 15" spruce/fir hiding among the rocks do not define "tree line" but often are found above [or north of] the true tree line - one definition of "tree" includes being capable of growing at least 6 meters tall.  Krummholz is tree species represented as shrubs, IMO.) 

Of course, I've seen maps with isotherms showing that NE Aroostook is colder than NW, with the reasoning being that NW Aroostook is closer to the "warming" influence of St. Lawrence.  I consider that to be horse hockey, as the estuary often freezes and it's 40 miles from Rocky.  We had many marginal or rainy events in Ft. Kent that were all frozen at 1,200' near Rocky - as soon as one climbed the hills out of Allagash, the snow depth increased dramatically, except when LP was too far east.  The Dec. 1983 ice storm in town, which produced a moose-proof crust 3" thick with 1.9" LE, was 8-12" of IP/SN near Rocky, with no icing.  A week earlier, when I had 10" snow followed by 1.5" RA then 1.5" snow (nightmare shoveling!), the woods below Rocky had 18" of clingy snow and no rain. That's just 2 among many events (including 2" snow on 9/14/77 and 1"+ on 6/9/80) where NW Aroostook was decidedly more wintry than in Ft. Kent, or even in Allagash village along the rivers.

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